Today is the first day I felt like bird site here on Mastodon. I understand it is the Indian men and not the website at fault. But gender issues is important to me. I hate men who try to mansplain to me about women issues. I felt really happy reading the rules of Mastodon which said sexism & advocacy of sexism is not allowed. I am largely peaceful in debates unless provoked, today was just a bad day with bad men around I guess, why didn’t we leave this men in bird app? *sighs*

@Deepsealioness I would like to offer apologies on behalf of them 🙏

@ninad not your fault at all. I am just hormonal today so I get affected

@Deepsealioness So what if not my fault. I should do it just to make you feel better.
As I have said earlier, a social media which doesn't take a toll on mental health especially for politically aware and active people can only be realized if we heal for every wound by either apologizing or through praise/appreciation posts.

@Deepsealioness hehe. Thanks.
BirdSite handle I deleted it long time ago actually. Was fed up. Got into argument with few folks on national security and since I used to engage in mostly politics, economy and geopolitics it was difficult to stay there among constant arguing and trolling. Also it was consuming too much of my time while offering little in productivity/new learning. So thought it's better to focus on books & research papers than social media...1/2

@Deepsealioness ...but now I am here on another social media. :angery:

Even if I were active, you wouldn't have liked my profile as I followed many RW & centrist voices apart from usual LW voices. Also you wouldn't have liked my views on geopolitics. I am a realist. 🙈

@Deepsealioness oh I meant argued here not on BirdSite.
Don't remember exactly but it was something about sanghis. You labeled all of them as something and I argued that not all of them are such and BJP voter-base is a complex set of people. We just can't label all of them as blood thirsty people. They have a variety of reasons to vote the way they do.

@ninad @Deepsealioness
U said these same reasons to me.
Can't label them as one.
Variety of reasons etc.

Dunno, why this didn't occur to me when I replied to u.
But, whatever reasons they have, they vote for BJP, they are responsible for things going wrong today.
No reason can justify voting for them.
I have fought with NRIs giving What'sapp forward info to show their support.

@KnottedBow
Yes they are responsible for BJP being in power. That is a different thing than labelling all of them as haters or people who wants Hindu Rashtra.
Yes both you and me may agree that there can be no reason to vote them, well surely a lot of people disagree. There can be economic reasons, security (both internal and external) reasons (speaking as a former teenage supporter of BJP even before I could vote - plz don't kill me for this), TINA for some et al. 1/2

@Deepsealioness

@ninad
U know, when there is a big fight,
like
With BJP or against BJP
There is only one way.

I have been seeing anti BJP differ in opinions and some even come to fights...
But when they vote, they are all decidedly antiBJPee.

BJPeee stands for hate. Didn't start today, since 1992, my first awareness of their hateful nature.
I am not a Muslim either, but just a human being, who saw what hate they were capable of.

so TINA is an excuse they propagated.
No reason good enf.

@Deepsealioness

@KnottedBow
I am not justifying any of the reasons I cited. I am just saying that they ARE a part of a set of reasons. Both you and @Deepsealioness are refusing to recognize that.
Propaganda doesn't work instantly. Both to push people into false narratives away from reality and to bring them back to reality, we have to constantly hammer them with information. In that battle, BJP is clearly ahead for now.
It's politics. We cant 'hope' people will understand our side and vote accordingly. 1/2

@KnottedBow @Deepsealioness
....we have to make them realize our reality and bring them out of their reality in order for them to vote as we wish. It is easy to think "how can anyone be so insensitive to not see BJP's hatred.." ...but in practice this world is driven not by idealist theories but real-politik. Unfair? Definitely. But that's the truth.
Hear/read Yogendra Yadav on how opposition surrendered the idea of nationalism to BJP for starters.

@Deepsealioness @KnottedBow yes I am not denying that. As I said the voters for BJP obviously include haters, racists, bigots, communal monsters.
But not ALL of them are such.

@Deepsealioness
Yes. And that's pretty much the Gujarat model too. Mostly urban centred development at cost of tribals and villagers.
@KnottedBow

@ninad @KnottedBow so where do the innocent rural crowd come in. These are booted fucks voting bjp

@ninad @KnottedBow you said rural folks vote for bjp. I am saying what’s the excuse for this urban bigoted fucks

@Deepsealioness
I think there is some confusion here.
In Guj it's the urban section which generally votes big to BJP - mostly businessmen and upper castes Hindus. Some of them vote coz of hate, some due to well urban development, some due to crony capitalism, blah blah...
BJP is comparatively weak in rural Gujarat areas.
Come on ma'am, u too know this. take a deep breath and ask yourself objectively. Can everyone who votes bjp have no reason except being hate mongering sanghis...
@KnottedBow

@Deepsealioness
If it were that simple, we would have no hope of winning against BJP don't you think? Coz how can you convert a rabid communal sanghi into someone not voting for BJP?!!

The only reason we can still win 2024 is BECAUSE PEOPLE VOTE FOR DIFFERENT REASONS and they can be convinced to not vote for BJP by educating them about so many things.

@KnottedBow

@ninad
Dekh Bhai...
Those who vote for hate, they can never be changed.
The expectation is always from other reason waale.
And these other reason waale are the ones who voted for 2014 and against in 2019.

I have asked 2 Gujjus, y Guj votes BJP more. Response aane de. Kal batate Hain reason.
@Deepsealioness

@KnottedBow
True. Those hateful bigots can't be changed.
But there are still many who voted in 2019 for BJP who can be changed and won over.
You know that their vote share increased right? So there are still many who vote because of various reasons. Cynicism of @Deepsealioness aside, unless one believes in EVM conspiracy theories, one will keep fighting. Heck even if you believe that EVMs are rigged, you still should keep fighting.

Btw I am gujju.

@ninad
And EVM ka locha hai.
Ppl are working on it.
Ppl have posted threads on it also.
@Deepsealioness

@KnottedBow
Some of them I have countered. Both here as well as on BirdSite. But do send me links if something new comes up.
@Deepsealioness

@ninad
Countered or encountered (come across) ?🤔
Both have different meanings u know.
@Deepsealioness

@ninad @KnottedBow ha! Now comes the answer, am Gujju! Tell me honestly how can someone vote for Modi after 2002?

@Deepsealioness
I didn't vote for them. As I said i was a supporter even before I could vote. Wasn't 18 years old then. But if I were able to I would have still voted for them at the time so here is the answer:

I believed he would be better for the economy, and for national security. Obviously anti incumbency did it's role against congress. I believed in the clean chit given to him by the Supreme Court.
@KnottedBow

@ninad @KnottedBow so minority lives didn’t matter to you is the crux ? Come on let’s be honest , it was not priority

@Deepsealioness
I already said I believed in SC's clean chit and believed that it wasn't a politically instigated riot but one of the so many which happened almost all the time in Guj before that fateful day.
I am sorry for that. I could have kept this fact hidden but I am honest about my beliefs in the past. Now I am changed. You may hate me for that i can understand.
@KnottedBow

@ninad @KnottedBow I have spoken to Gujarati Muslims and how they were or still are treated in gujarat. Can you deny that? Why does Gujarat vote for a butcher?

@Deepsealioness
No I don't deny that. Many of them (very few left after 2002) still live in fear. The peace (compared to earlier) that came in Gujarat after 2002 came at a huge cost which people ignore in their day to day lives.
@KnottedBow

@Deepsealioness
Technically yes but as I wrote, it came at a huge cost. Obviously we do not desire such a peace and would like one where everyone is included and happy.
@KnottedBow

@ninad @KnottedBow at a huge cost to one section of society and mother society votes to keep them in fear

@ninad
As I had said yesterday..
I asked two Gujju friend, both Hindus, btw.. but against BJP
Why Guj votes for BJP.
One has responded, islamophobia.
Other person is off WA this Sunday, I think.

@Deepsealioness

@KnottedBow
Well that person with due respect to them is also over-simplifying the Indian population's way of voting.
Anyone who makes a sweeping generalization about so many people and labels them into 1 category is missing the nuance and binarizing an issue which is actually a spectrum.
@Deepsealioness

@ninad @Deepsealioness

Are you researcher or something. 🤔
In the big picture, nitty gritties don't matter.
Btw, what he said is fact, heard it before too.

Also, ppl were hoodwinked with Guj model of development, but why am I telling this to a Gujju.. u shud know it already.

@KnottedBow
You don't need to be a researcher to not see the issues in black or white. Also are we really going into hearsay now? If you ask few more gujaratis they will tell you something else but you would dismiss them as loathsome sanghis coz you don't agree with their view. "I heard two people say it that's why is a fact" is just the counterpart of sanghi WhatsApp University.
Why are we even debating this. We both agree we need to convince those who can be. Let's get on it
@Deepsealioness

@ninad

Heresay ?? 🙏🙏
I told what Gujjus living in Amdavad told me..
@Deepsealioness

@KnottedBow
Yes I am afraid s sample size of 2 for a 6 crore population isn't enough. As I said, if you ask few more, you will get different views.

But no point in debating this if you agree that there are still some of them (not just in Guj but all over India) who can be convinced. We should focus our energies on that.

@Deepsealioness

@ninad
Bade mazakiya ho tum
😂😂
They were not giving their thoughts but their assessment of why Guj voted.

And I call this quits here.

Happy Sunday Ninad
@Deepsealioness

@ninad @Deepsealioness @KnottedBow gujarat always has had a conservative streak. And that accentuates the differences and easy to polarize society along communal lines. The sense of regret or empathy is mostly missing from the discourse. At some levels it's very patriarchal, in the historical sense of the world. The worldview is very narrowed down. So is difficult to change a lot of things over there.

@ninad @Deepsealioness @KnottedBow but i liked ninad's being upfront about his journey. Its refreshing. And am sure theee is hope for good ..

@ninad @KnottedBow @Deepsealioness talking about EVM theories. When there are many EVMs missing, when bizzarre results come (Kirron Kher couldn't get even a hundred people to come for a rally in Chandigarh, but won the seat anyways by about 45000 votes or so), then to dismiss it cavalierly is wrong. The EVMs definitely have played a role not 100% as most of us would like to believe, not 0% as the BJP would like us to believe, but in the middle somewhere.

@ninad @KnottedBow meh all institutes are corrupted and taken over , next 15 years or till economy collapses

@Deepsealioness
Let's see. My belief in our system, institutions and people vs your (not unfounded) pessimism.
@KnottedBow

@ninad
Ok. Comment on election commission and SC.
Let's see. Two big institutions.
Ur views on them pl
@Deepsealioness

@ninad
My Guj friend said after 2019 results.
There is no way BJP got 26/26 by straight means.
We all were on concall on day of results, tab bola.
@Deepsealioness

Sign in to participate in the conversation
Mastodon

Server run by the main developers of the project 🐘 It is not focused on any particular niche interest - everyone is welcome as long as you follow our code of conduct!