Today is the first day I felt like bird site here on Mastodon. I understand it is the Indian men and not the website at fault. But gender issues is important to me. I hate men who try to mansplain to me about women issues. I felt really happy reading the rules of Mastodon which said sexism & advocacy of sexism is not allowed. I am largely peaceful in debates unless provoked, today was just a bad day with bad men around I guess, why didn’t we leave this men in bird app? *sighs*
@Deepsealioness So what if not my fault. I should do it just to make you feel better.
As I have said earlier, a social media which doesn't take a toll on mental health especially for politically aware and active people can only be realized if we heal for every wound by either apologizing or through praise/appreciation posts.
@Deepsealioness hehe. Thanks.
BirdSite handle I deleted it long time ago actually. Was fed up. Got into argument with few folks on national security and since I used to engage in mostly politics, economy and geopolitics it was difficult to stay there among constant arguing and trolling. Also it was consuming too much of my time while offering little in productivity/new learning. So thought it's better to focus on books & research papers than social media...1/2
@Deepsealioness ...but now I am here on another social media.
Even if I were active, you wouldn't have liked my profile as I followed many RW & centrist voices apart from usual LW voices. Also you wouldn't have liked my views on geopolitics. I am a realist. 🙈
@Deepsealioness oh I meant argued here not on BirdSite.
Don't remember exactly but it was something about sanghis. You labeled all of them as something and I argued that not all of them are such and BJP voter-base is a complex set of people. We just can't label all of them as blood thirsty people. They have a variety of reasons to vote the way they do.
Dunno, why this didn't occur to me when I replied to u.
But, whatever reasons they have, they vote for BJP, they are responsible for things going wrong today.
No reason can justify voting for them.
I have fought with NRIs giving What'sapp forward info to show their support.
Yes they are responsible for BJP being in power. That is a different thing than labelling all of them as haters or people who wants Hindu Rashtra.
Yes both you and me may agree that there can be no reason to vote them, well surely a lot of people disagree. There can be economic reasons, security (both internal and external) reasons (speaking as a former teenage supporter of BJP even before I could vote - plz don't kill me for this), TINA for some et al. 1/2
U know, when there is a big fight,
With BJP or against BJP
There is only one way.
I have been seeing anti BJP differ in opinions and some even come to fights...
But when they vote, they are all decidedly antiBJPee.
BJPeee stands for hate. Didn't start today, since 1992, my first awareness of their hateful nature.
I am not a Muslim either, but just a human being, who saw what hate they were capable of.
so TINA is an excuse they propagated.
No reason good enf.
I am not justifying any of the reasons I cited. I am just saying that they ARE a part of a set of reasons. Both you and @Deepsealioness are refusing to recognize that.
Propaganda doesn't work instantly. Both to push people into false narratives away from reality and to bring them back to reality, we have to constantly hammer them with information. In that battle, BJP is clearly ahead for now.
It's politics. We cant 'hope' people will understand our side and vote accordingly. 1/2
Accha...tell me this.
U were a BJPuan u said.
Have u changed now ?
If so, why ??
There are a lot of BJP voters of 2014, and mentioned so in their birdsite bio, who now are decidedly against BJP. Why do u think they changed ??
And let me tell u, ppl may have reasons at micro level, that's up to them, but when we talk, it is always general. No one does each village analysis 🤦♀️
You still asking? Isn't it clear my pref changed?
Why change? Well so many reasons. No point reiterating them here. You know all of them.
Yes many people changed their views. Again reasons are diverse.
By examples of villages I am not justifying their choice. I am just making a point that people have different reasons for voting. It is wrong for you and @Deepsealioness (going to run after this coz she will definitely kill me) to label them all as hate mongering sanghis.
Bhai... Kisi ne bola all 100% BJP voters are hate mongers ?? 🙄🤔
But also a fact, majority bJp voters vote for a reason.
Reasons many, end result is same.
But, they sure give power to the hate mongers, so they become enablers na.
There is a snake in the ground. U will wait to find out if it poisonous or not, before u decide to run ??
Let me put it simply to u.
Single catagory, yes, of BJP voters. Sahuliyat le liye, we call them sanghi, coz that is their start point.
For hate or for Tina or Kajol or Ravena, whatever reason, end result is same.
bJP gets vote.
The hate agenda of BJP gets promoted.
We have colleagues and acquaintes in real life who are BJPians. Can't avoid. Don't discuss politics with them either, that's my escape.
There is life beyond politics too.
On a serious note, I might write an essay of sorts on this. Coz I just realized that if knowledgeable people like u 2 think on these lines, it is quite possible so many others do too. If so, v r heading in wrong direction.
Although I still think u know the reality, you are just clouded by your emotions right now to recognize it. I am not denying the large presence of hate in BJP's base. But certainly not ALL of them are such. Significant amount can be won over
Sigh. I don't know what to say. It's unfortunate.
All I understand is this :
Not all of BJP voters are haters. Many of them can be won over. The institutions are bent, not broken. There will always be a fighting chance and we should not give up.
You may call me ignorant or naive (not innocent - therez no reason to be polite on this) but I refuse to give up. Everyday I fight in my family and college group. Decently though. Try and convince people.
Change of larger groups. Which is why you giving excuses doesn’t help. We need to accept that Hindus have actually been made to feel inferior by bjp and they say only it we are in power you will have your status intact & majority doesn’t care about what price muslims pay for our insecurity
Larger groups i understand. I am asking HOW?
Also, what I said aren't excuses from my point of view. I see into and beyond both eco chambers and try to bridge them. Result - get lashed at from both sides. I am mentally tired of debating the same things over & over. Not going to argue on this anymore coz I am tired and more importantly any more arguing would feel to me like forcing my opinion on u which I will never do. 😔
@ninad well each one has a moral burden to take the country back from fascists and hate mongers. We try to educate, your way comes out more as apologists, mine aggressive but end goal is we need to fix this
@Deepsealioness I see the same logical fallacy here in being apologist as the “not all men” thing. I am with you on this one. Hmm... even this comment is probably redundant! But I have typed it so might as well post.
@tariquesani agree with you being apologist only emboldens the losers unwilling to change. I say call it out exactly as it is
Ahh I see, I knew musslims were oppressed but I figured both groups were. At least in america and in europe both groups are oppressed so I guess thats why I assumed it. It makes sense that in indian itself that isnt the case...
Well I still think hindus rock and deserve the appreciation, but I can also add that i have many amazing muslim friends and every one of them are the sweetest kind of people I know, so they rock too :)
Fair point, hinduism obviously is where the caste system came from.
But I'd like to point out that is also just one manifestation of hinduism (and sadly it might be the dominant form in india).
But I do know many hindus who do not believe in the caste system and do not believe that their religious system ever intended for there to be a caste system (Even though they do believe in reincarnation and the evolution through that process).
So in cases like this it is important for me to point that out, in the same way i point out that not all musslims support Jihad as an actual physical war.
As with all religions there are many interpritations some are harmful some arent. Thankfully all the hindus i know reject the harmful parts and do not see it as a valid part of the religion. In fact they view the caste system as contrary to the hindu religion, the people I know at least.
@freemo @ninad @KnottedBow it is nice that upper caste Hindus accept that casteism is wrong, being one myself who doesn’t practice casteism and had an inter caste marriage I think it is wrong of me to say I don’t follow caste so casteism doesn’t affect me. I benefit from the caste privilege whether I reject it or not and that is what most don’t understand you not being casteist doesn’t help , you should be anti casteism
Well im not suggesting it is the **only** thing they do. Honestly i dont know what efforts they make in their free time to oppose it if any.
Also kee in mind im talking about hindus I know mostly in america. So there isnt much caste based oppression in america they could address anyway.
@freemo @ninad @KnottedBow yeah there most folks who had privilege to move would be upper caste folks and they don’t want to look bad in front of others. I know in Florida there is a retirement colony which permits only vegetarians to buy houses there which my uncle has a house in. The upper castes are vegetarians largely, they have brought casteism there just not enough for others to understand
@freemo @Deepsealioness @ninad @KnottedBow Dr Freemo, I can't help but feel you're relying a little too much on anecdotal evidence. Caste is deeply intertwined with the history of Indian religions and political power. It takes a great deal of privilege to go through life without ever facing it - it's woven into the way the religion operates.
How so? I never claimed anything to the contrary of what you jsut stated. I never claimed caste issues werent a part of the history of india nor did I claim it was disconnected from religion in any way.
I see nothing in what you said that I would disagree with or anything that my previous statement contradicted.
Yes there are many interpretations but fact remains that oppression did happen and as
@Deepsealioness calls it - systematic oppression happened. So no matter what today's upper castes think or do, they cannot change history. Thus unless we root the mentality out, we cannot get even near to being an egalitarian society.
But I am positive because slowly and steadily, it is happening.
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