Over the years we've had many high-profile Twitter users join Mastodon, and most haven't stuck around (that I know of). I'm curious if it's the network effect being stronger for them, if it's a culture mismatch re: famousness, or something about Mastodon's features that's lacking for them.
@Gargron personally, i’d put my money on the uphill battle you’re fighting against twitter here: even for nonfamous users like me, it’s a new network where i have to build new contacts vs an already established circle of friends/audience. even if mastodon was twitter-sized, it’d still be a start from (mostly) zero.
@Gargron it's certainly not the features. Several people that I've had take a look at Mastodon have all said they didn't want to use it because there were more people on Twitter.
@Gargron Pretty sure it's "the network effect" like you said it. People is used to Twitter and Facebook for daily posting and follows other people where they are. Twitter grow fast several year ago because facebook couldn't afford the spontaneity that Twitter offer and other things like ads everywhere. Social network by definition can't work decentralised in our modern world I deplore it. "Normal people" have to have a easy and unique location point to bring a mass of people together ...
@Gargron I'd say it's a cultural mismatch in a different way; a lot of twitter users I see coming here treat it as a way to increase their "reach" through reposts and not a real social network, bringing their twitter attitude with them.
@Gargron (to be clear, I'm not implying anything general about people who use repost bots — I know some pretty great people here who use them — but it's definitely a problem with the overall culture of that site)
@Gargron I would feel confident in saying it's what I think you mean by the network effect. Their followers don't follow them to mastodon and they don't grow enough "market share" on mastodon fast enough in comparison.
Of course, the reason their followers don't follow them to mastodon is very few people *move* to mastodon. They start a mastodon account in tandem, and then when it isn't as popular, drop it again.
@Gargron I was certainly not a "high profile" twitter personality, but most of my friends joined mastodon because I straight-up left twitter.
Very few people are willing to take that jump.
@InspectorCaracal Yeah, that's rare. The people I'm thinking of have a lot of power to effect change which makes it an extra bummer.
@Gargron The people with that kind of power are usually too worried about losing it to actually use it. *sigh*
I pretty much only ever really engaged on Mastodon. I think the same reasons I like it here probably make it feel insubstantial to someone used to treating social media like a megaphone. The village feeling is strong here, and while it's still global, it feels small and familiar.
@Gargron Only libre people (i'm french, libre isn't free in out language) are inside decentrilased network like Mastodon. For Mastodon to work for "normal people", marketing has to be done and it's against the goal of libre spirit. I've worked on the marketing side of a company and oh god, never again. But yeah, without that, you can't touch the "rest of the world" sadly :/
@xefir I am not against marketing to the outside, I have run ads on Twitter/Instagram in the past, not super effective though because obviously my budget is microscopic
@Gargron My first thoughts: Twitter is explicitly a wide subscribable broadcast network with a reply-channel, while Mastodon is a local channel network with the ability to opt-in to broader issues.
If you want to broadcast, the wide reach of Twitter is a better network; Mastodon allows finer-tuning of content-i-want-to-see.
@Gargron tl;dr - it’s a network effect ++
@Gargron Some more thoughts:
On Friday Last I just got annoyed with Nazis, and decided to take a break from Social Media for a week or so.
Obvs that didn't last, as here I am. Joined originally in the Great Rush of April 17, and like most everyone else, didn't stay more than a few weeks.
So, back again, and on returning my TL here is pretty much dead. I have a whole bunch of folk I followed here who came over from Twitter at the same time, none of who are still on here, famous or otherwise.
@piersb Yeah that's... problematic, if you happen to follow people who came at the same time as you and left at the same time as you, and I suspect a lot of people might be in that situation. How could that be fixed?
New users follow the admin (me) by default, and admins are ideally active so there's that, but people who signed up in Apr 2017 are not in that group...
@Gargron My go-to would be something along the lines of "people-who-you-follow-are-following..."
- Take the set of people I follow.
- Pull out the people they're following that I'm not
- Some kind of filter that they need to have posted in the last X days
@piersb Damn!! I really really wanted to put that functionality in. It was even in the software before 1.0 came out! But people put their foot down, I don't remember which one it was, abuse concerns or echo chamber creation, or both.
As someone coming back after a year away, it feels like it would be a huge help.
Could it be an option that could be turned off-or-on at an instance level?
- This instance does not allow recommended-follows; if you make your home here you won't be promoted at all
- This instance allows recommended-follows if you are on the instance, but not from federated instances
- This instance allows recommended-follows from anyone we are federated with
if we find a way to neatly integrate other services info the UI we would win gold. Mastodon does not need to implement everything. I like the way federated wiki for Ward Cunningham uses plugins to extend the way the wiki items are presented to the user; but those are still client-side plugins that need to be installed. We will have to find a way to balance federation, UI consistency and security (what if a malicious third-party federated service injects some JS).
@Gargron @piersb I think this is where the power of the "common bond" instances are needed. When folks come to #socialcoop, they see themselves as joining a #coop-focused community as well as a mastodon instance, so the local timeline means there's a built-in crew of fellow-travelers right off the bat. As a result, we get a steady trickle of 1-5 such applicants a day, and a good number have stuck such that new folks aren't met by silence or irrelevant strangers...
@Gargron But the bigger problem is this: I can't curate a new bunch of people to follow.
My home TL is dead for reasons given above.
The mastodon.social home doesn't have enough traffic of the sort I'm interested in for me to be able to pick up signal I want.
The mastodon.social federation seems to be rolling along nicely - but mostly in Japanese. Which is lovely, but in terms of helping me curate a new feed is a non-starter.
@piersb I wonder if a trending hashtags section might have helped you...
@Gargron Definitely would.
Having said that, I've been back for four days now, and tonight's the first time I've posted on mastodon.social web rather than via Amoroq; I'm assuming that any trending-hashtag type fixes would take some time to propagate to mobile clients, which tends to be mostly how I engage with social media.
@piersb Yeah, true.
@Gargron maybe a Discovery tab with smart , curated options including hashtags, trending topics and users based on hashtags I've used or searched for before. Also need to improve the notifications to make new users come back, sending discovery suggestions via notifications and simply inviting them to come back if they haven't logged in lately. Mastodon needs an app of its own with all their features included. Small details in apps keep people coming back and checking their phones for more info.
@Gargron So my current plan is to try and see who's still posting on my home TL - in the hope that they're still relevant - and try to find some of their RTs/followers/followees in order to try and curate something that works.
1 It's confusing having to select a server, normal people will be like what?
There is a much better description of how it works on your patreon page than on the Mastodon page.
Second barrier, what is toot, come on. Use normal easy to understand language. Like post.
A star instead of like? Why?
People like both giving and receiving hearts.
It's not that easy to understand the main options at once. Post just scroll by when clicking on the earth.
@hellohi The Patreon description is better? 😲
I doubt toot is a huge barrier by itself, after all people use tweet.
Twitter used to have stars and people hated when they were changed into hearts, so that is arguable.
Could you explain your last point in different words?
I work with UX and I'm used to various interfaces, but if I find some of the interface unclear so will millions of people, and all these small things add up. People can't be motivated to learn yet a new vocabulary, you get Linux kinds and geeks. But only mainstream if it's easy or they have too.
Why limit to 500 words? I can still post more on Twitter, but have to link which often sucks.
Also want to add that you are doing really great work! Thanks.
Two things that will have me getting back to Twitter.
Newspapers posting on Twitter.
Should be able to get some news sites to post here.
Not much adult content. The adult content makes it hard to recommend.
Adult avatars should also be NSFW.
And adult posts filtered away by default.
I hope this takes off.
As for the UI, avoid word such as Federated timeline, not an easy word, and together with words such as Toot, it adds up.
Probably one of the biggest problems at first is to find users and the language setting.
Every language is on by default, and you have to click the languages you don't want to see.
To filter posts you get a regex filter option.
This is great for the 0.1% of users who know regex and understand what it will do here.
For others things like that makes people feel uneasy n outside. If you could have some premade filters, a few easy examples.
I had no idea that filtering languages out was even an option.
Have just turned it on for mastodon.social, and now may (may) be able to curate from the federated instances.
I don't know whether that will filter through to my Amoroq preferences, or if it's settable/changeable there. Would be good if it was.
@Gargron I would say part of it is the size of the audience.
But one of the good things here is it's levelled. There's no rankings or class system. Everyone is just people.
Maybe that's a disadvantage for them?
@Gargron Weird. I bounced right off Twitter, never engaged with it at all, but Mastodon? I fell right in and was immediately at home. Though this might have to do with the several years between introductions, I dunno. :/
@Gargron I use Mastodon, but I didn't have an active twitter account before. I was turned off by the number of large, impersonal accounts, and it was obvious that I'd be fighting algorithms built to encourage me to follow such accounts. It is just another form of advertising, and I'd pay money to avoid it.
@Gargron On the other hand, Discord is where most of my friends are, so I am having a hard time moving to IRC/XMPP/Matrix.
@Gargron IMHO the only way around this will be to give Mastodon something that Twitter doesn’t provide (and libre/federated ideology doesn’t count). Mastodon provides everything that Twitter does, but not much more, and people are going to need a serious incentive to jump ship from the site where all their friends are to one with many fewer people.
@Gargron I suspect it has a lot to do with the size of the user base and their intentions/interest While it has its negatives, the huge pool of users on Twitter means you can have any kind of conversation anytime, political, personal, there are comedy accounts and big personalities to follow. Mastodon is more intimate and direct. Twitter is the big city with the social anonymity/freedom thereof and mastodon feels more like your local neighborhood with a community center and good neighbors.
@Gargron I'd say the more high profile you are in a network, the more invested you are, it's more difficult to leave or shift your priorities elsewhere, eypecially if that elsewhere has limited reach and you have to build your network from scratch.
@Gargron to me the lack of celebrities is a blessing, not a curse. Genuine discussions between internet peasants > celebs setting trends or trying to look smart and funny
@phil @Gargron Very much agreed. There’s no doubt to my mind that more people deserve and need to find fediverse. But I don’t find the 100 decibel culture of Birdsite conducive to much of merit. If the whole branding and self promotion culture does have a place here, I’d much prefer a way it could be filtered from those of us who actually want to wield words and ideas in a serious manner.
The pickle is: Fedi as Birdsite replacement or anti-Birdsite?
@gargron they have more to loose than an average twitterer. If you have 100 followers you can easily get them here. To achieve thousands or millions would be difficult for most of them.
@Gargron not sure how transferrable this is from events to online social stuff, but when I stopped worrying about this kind of thing altogether, the events I run got better and I could concentrate more on community building. Which has done more for them than having any big-name speakers ever did.
I used to think "gotta get some big names to sell those tickets" and it kind of works, but all you actually need is for people to give a shit. Celebrities are a shortcut to that but a fragile one?
@Gargron I think it definitely takes time to build and perfect a platform. Twitter was built more than 10 years ago! People have established a strong fan base and net-works on it. It is also an established company with analytics/marketing to improve their features.
I strongly believe in the concept of Mastodon, look how awesome this platform has become in only a year!
@Gargron I definitely feel a sense of community here as a SW, and the feeling that we can build a safe space together for the community added a lot of value to it.
I am sticking around!
@Gargron For myself, I came to social.coop to escape 'famous' social media ego-blasters. I was looking for conversation and worthwhile content. I can get an ego-blast any time of day from a million media channels! I'm happy they didn't stay :) I just wish there were a filter-switch for them in <settings>, just like there is for languages I can't read.
I feel the UX here isn't great, but I bear it bcos I may get the content I want. Bcos, as you note, social.coop is a 'common bond' instance.
@Gargron Part of the reason I don't really use Mastodon at all is that none of my friends are here, and it's kind of confusing how instances work
Don't think I count as high-profile (56k followers on Twitter), and I largely post the same content both here and on Twitter, G+, Tumblr, and FB. I also tell people about all platforms I'm on, in case I'm what keeps people on Twitter when another platform, like Mastodon, would suit then better.
I definitely intend to stick around, and don't miss any features (I like the G+ circles, but don't have any use for them on this account).
People are generally nicer here, too. :-)
@MicroSFF Aaaaaa I had no idea you were a person, I thought this account was automated!
56k is high-profile in my book! Glad to hear this.
Only one person writing and posting. Only my Tumblr is automated, through IFTTT. I add more tags here and on G+, for instance, and a story that takes two tweets might get me in one toot; I try to follow local custom. :-)
I read replies and comments everywhere, and try to answer when I have something to say. I'm also dipping in reading, but have limited time, alas. (Still trying to get used to your new avatar.)
@MicroSFF Your stories are amazing. Love them
@Gargron Thank you, I'm glad to hear that.
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