I'm now getting DMs of support because people are afraid if they agree publicly they'll be harassed next. That's not a good atmosphere folks.
@Gargron this ain't it chief
@Gargron We have no compassion and we ask no compassion from you. When our turn comes, we shall not make excuses for the terror. But the royal terrorists, the terrorists by the grace of God and the law, are in practice brutal, disdainful, and mean, in theory cowardly, secretive, and deceitful, and in both respects disreputable.
@Gargron FWIW, I thought what you said made sense.
You're good people, @Gargron 👍
@Gargron Like... agree about what? No one thinks dogpiles are good. Many don't think he was meaningfully "dogpiled," is all.
@Gargron going on record that I support what you’re doing and that dogpiling is never good
@Gargron this is disingenuous and you know it, Eugen.
@Gargron Have you considered maybe stopping now
@Gargron You have to remember that a lot of the people here are coming from Twitter where they have a history with Wilw. It’s not about the rules of the instance but more their past interactions with him
@Gargron They will be fine. Wil was the problem. He's no longer a problem. I mean, you aren't being harassed and you said we bullied him off the site.
@Granddad @Gargron The thing I question about the "bullied off the site" thing is WilW will *not* be bullied. I have quite honestly seen exactly what sort of stuff he pulls, and pulls in public, and gets away with it. Pointing that out is *not* bullying. And the fact that some are calling it such is highly problematic to me. The fact that Eugen has felt that new "rules" need to be put in place, absent the clarification of what is meant by them. Creates a sense of language/behaviour policing
@JigmeDatse @Gargron Wil has written about his experience so everything went according to plan for him. He's now the victim and those dang trans people are an angry mob running away their allies. Everyone saw this coming and I hope nothing is changed because of this. I don't care about people's opinions on what happened, I care about how much will get changed if/when this happens again.
@JigmeDatse @Gargron Like, what are you going to do when nazis see how this went and start showing up? Will it be okay as long as they don't have a history over here and never say nazi stuff? This should be a lesson learned for lots of people including Eugen. The world ain't nice and some people know what they are talking about.
@Gargron @JigmeDatse I agree with you about "callout culture" and will even go as far to admit that this is what in kinda turned into. I think there should be some reflection as to why a person is getting called out. A person saying, "oh no I'm attacked" should not mean they get the full defense force.
@Granddad @Gargron The only things which people have found in terms of "abuse" towards wilw were basically "shut up" type comments. Those who *have* shared the negative comments they found, could well have been filtering the comments, or the abusive ones may have been deleted and they didn't see them. But since *no* one has provided any evidence which amounts to anything beyond "shut up wil" type comments to call it abuse means I'm abused pretty much daily here, I should leave in a huff.
@sexybenfranklin @Granddad @Gargron I saw some stuff which I couldn't tell if it was in jokes, and if it was in jokes, whether or not he was in on them or not. If so, I would say that it was nothing. But if he wasn't it was stuff that is way milder than a lot of stuff that I've seen directed at me that "can't you take a joke?" is a "legitimate" response. Like literally had "go jump off a bridge fagot" said to me, and that didn't bully me off the platform.
@JigmeDatse @Granddad @Gargron I mean, he didn't get bullied of the platform, the admins of mastodon.cloud suspended his accounts because it was receiving a lot of frivolous reports. But yeah, he really should have just blocked people and move on. Maybe block the entire instance that was harassing him.
@sexybenfranklin @Granddad @Gargron While it may be true technically that his account was suspended (I don't know, but I don't believe that actually is the case) he made a *massive* point of "leaving social media entirely" because of the bullying. When I last looked, his account content is still available, he's just stopped posting. This was *significantly* after the claims he'd been "bullied off the platform" were well established.
@Gargron @Granddad My issue with this statement is not so much that it is vaguely incorrect. But that it misses the point. Callout culture is being called out, and it's being used as an excuse to dismiss callout culture. I *know* that bad stuff has happened with that, but what I've seen is most who question callout culture, are people of privilege suggesting that there is a fundamental flaw. And there is. It's that it *had to develop* in order to deal with real problems.
@Gargron There's a lot of things people self-censor so they won't get targeted, Eugen. It's not new to the community and it won't be fixed without understanding why people were upset in the first place.
@Gargron The trans community that came from Twitter in particular is prickly and defensive because of years of having the only recourse being to be louder and more oboxious, because nobody else gave a shit. That's not something that is fixed in a week of good intentions.
@Gargron It takes empathy and communication and I think this instance had it fail on both counts, which is why it spiraled into what it did.
@Gargron Maybe you need to accept that your decision to limit the discussion is exacerbating the problem. I've been on numerous online forums (and that's all this is - a forum) and cutting off debate usually makes things worse.
IMO, you appear to basing your decisions on assumptions, not facts. Doing nothing allows people to release their pain in a safe environment. But you've chosen to mark them as "bad guys" here. Admins taking sides rarely helps. #Censorship of those in pain demeans them.
@Gargron First principle in dispute resolution: let people fully express their grievances. Mr. Wheaton's an adult who acted badly, but criticism of him online is not going to damage his ego or is opinion of himself. Criticism is healthy. If I did what he did, would you have made such a big deal if I received criticism from those whose pain I triggered? Of course not! I don't really care about the controversy that much, but I do care that people in pain be allowed to express their anger.
@Gargron Today, I no longer get triggered by fear of being outed or dehumanized by others. I outed myself as Bi & stopped being anon online several years ago. But I understand that the fear & anxiety Wheaton's actions - his actions, not just his words - caused others. Knee jerk responses never go well. You forgot to view them, not just Wheaton, with compassion. Try again. You want a healthy, constructive dialogue? That cannot happen when you limit what people can post about their anger/pain.
@Gargron No one need fret over the quasi-celeb. He will move onto another social platform and alienate himself there before demanding special treatment, instead of using his considerable resources to create the echo chamber he is chasing after himself. Rinse, repeat ad nausium until he runs out of people to block because they had the gall to try to interact with him.
@Gargron On record: I support your and the mod team’s actions in this matter.
@Gargron Wheaton was harassed because he has a very long history of harming people and refusing to take ownership of it.
Yes, people are going to be upset at anyone who defends him because he is a bad person who has hurt people with his actions.
Several people have publicly said that yelling at you is bad, and have asked people not to complain to you. That's not getting them harassed, though, because they understand the issues at hand. You still don't seem to.
@dirtyjose @Gargron Except that it is. The thing causing the atmosphere in question is that some people agree with Gargron and some people vehemently don't, and the reason that they don't agree is because they are incredibly uncomfortable with someone who has a horrible history gaining a foothold on Mastodon.
Ignoring the actual context of the drama is naive and pointless.
People feel Gargron is protecting an abusive person. That's pretty fucking relevant to the discussion.
@dirtyjose @Gargron No, because to understand the context and yet still agree with Gargron is to say "I am okay with someone who causes many members of the community harm due to his very existence to be defended by the moderators".
I've watched other mods from other instances deal with Wheaton. I've watched them explain to Gargron what he should do. Instead he says "well harassment is bad no matter who it's at" and ignoring that normal users would not be given such treatment.
What Eugen did is basically just ignored all the people telling him that Wheaton has caused harm. So, no, I don't really see that as a good thing, and while I don't think people should be harassed for their bad opinions, I also frankly don't believe that there's some large number of people who are afraid of speaking up in defense of Wil Wheaton, considering the numerous people doing exactly that.
Meanwhile he'd still be ignoring the vulnerable minorities.
@Gargron Sorry I missed something, what are you getting support for? Harrassing for ppl for what. Not being wiseacre, I'm in the dark.
@Gargron I support you. I moderated a political discussion forum and know the difficulty involved. It believe the moderators serve the community space more than the community individuals. They enforce rules of use in that space like a landlord does. The best rules describe a welcoming environment for the individuals to occupy and interact. But the moderator shouldn't be controlling that interaction in favor of one group or another. They should endeavor to keep the space open for all invited.
The saddest part of all this is the lack of self awareness.
People are upset about a list of harassers ... so they respond with harassment.
Like ... do these people think that harassment only "counts" if you have a swastika tattoo?
@Gargron do your thing yo. Set the stage how you want it, with the atmosphere you want. If people don't like it, they can find their own place free of the things they're so upset about. I trust you to make good judgment calls and it seems like this is just Twitter bullshit being brought over.
So many people seem to think that unless something fits their exact specifications then it's an outrage -- it's impossible to please everyone, harder still to please those types.
@Gargron That was the shitty thing about left twitter. The validation gangs and quote tweets prevented more speech than Jack ever dreamed of.
@Gargron BUZZ BUZZ
@gargron I agree with you publicly.
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