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I can't wait until I can begin removing OStatus-related code from Mastodon. I think GNU social is the last remaining fediverse project that hasn't yet switched to ActivityPub?

Boy, I still remember the good old days of Identi.ca and Quitter... emphasis on good OLD days though
@Gargron AP at Friendica isnt in the stable branch by now. The release will be in 1 or 2 months.

@Gargron at some point dropping OStatus, even if not every single project has moved on to ActivityPub yet, should be considered simply because of the fragmentation they add to the fediverse, which is not much better than the threat of proprietary services~

@kevat @Gargron there are people who have invested huge amounts of time in what has unfortunately turned out to be a cul-de-sac.

IMO we should honor the immense amount of work people have put in for their community and humbly ask that they join us.

@kevat @Gargron clarification. By cul-de-sac I mean ostatus,not Gnu Social.

@maryjane @kevat Hubzilla is on ActivityPub and Diaspora will probably never be, but Diaspora was never OStatus either.

@Gargron
Ok you dont consider diaspora fediverse. Not surprising considering their positions on ActivityPub. But still dont understand why remove Ostaus support
@kevat

@maryjane @kevat OStatus never moved past a draft stage of standartization. It is completely devoid of any privacy mechanisms. It has no advantages over ActivityPub. Why not still keep it? Because we want cleaner code in Mastodon. Less code to maintain and ensure quality & safety of.

@kevat @Gargron
But what is the point in removing Ostatus support?

@maryjane @kevat Mastodon is not a multi-protocol application. The only reason OStatus is in there is because we started with OStatus, then switched to the much better ActivityPub, and haven't removed OStatus yet.

@Gargron
Ok. But what improves in mastodon by removing Ostatus support?
@kevat

@maryjane @kevat Fewer lines of code to maintain. Fewer code paths to keep track of.

@Gargron @kevat
At least from a technical point of view.

From the fediverse point of view for me it would be like to cut off a part of the fediverse if federation with Gnu Social stops

@maryjane @kevat A whole year ago there was talks about GNU social upgrading to ActivityPub. I have not heard anything about it since, but there is a limit to how long you can wait, right? Most of the fediverse has moved on.

@Gargron @maryjane exactly my point, it shouldn't be mastodons (or any other ActivityPub using project) burden to support obsolete standards just so some technological niches, who purposefully self-segregate by refusing to accept standards, don't feel left out.

@maryjane @Gargron @kevat Pretty much every code base is improved by removing things. Every non-trivial code vase is already too big to fully understand, and removing things makes this problem less severe. This leads to better development and fewer accidents.

@maryjane

Hubzilla is not OStatus, it's Zot and later Zot6. Hubzilla have optional plugins for ActivityPub and OStatus.

The Diaspora Network (a.k.a. The Federation) has a plan to add ActivityPub support. When it started 6-7 years ago, it had OStatus support. They decided to drop it because it was a P.I.T.A. t maintain and taking away their time from their own "diaspora protocol" (don't confuse it with the software, there are other software connected to the Diaspora Network/Protocol).

The only one left still using the obsolete OStatus protocol is GNU Social. OStatus was developed mainly by the main develop behind GNU Social a.k.a. StatusNet, Laconica, Chris Evans. He left and started Pump.io. While developing Pump.io, the beginnings of ActivityPub formed. He left Pump.io to concentrate on ActivityPub.

Believe it or not, Pump.io did not even bother to implement OStatus. They also closed/dropped the plan in favor of ActivityPub which still has zero progress.

GNU Social fans are developing an ActivityPub plugin, one is already in testing, but it is taking far too long because there simply is no interest within their community. (Like in Diaspora software side, too long, no interest, just a side-project with the least priority.)

In other words, OStatus is dead, obsolete, forget about it. It is time to move on. ActivityPub isn't perfect but everyone rallied behind it and not OStatus.

Other developers and projects and server admins are dropping OStatus support and/or plugins.

We just have to wait for Friendica to make their AP implementation stable and we're completely done with OStatus. If GNU Social wants to stay isolated, it's their choice.

Heck, even Socialhome is developing its implementation of AP in their code, Socialhome is mainly Diaspora Network/Protocol. So, Friendica isn't alone in this. Friendica is mainly DFRN with Diaspora Network/Protocol and OStatus, soon ActivityPub too. Will Friendica drop OStatus? I hope so. It's the only way to tell GNU Social fans to migrate to AP.

@Yulegen 🎄
The code for the different protocols is strictly isolated in Friendica, so we can easily remove OStatus. But I guess we will keep it as long as there is any activity.

@ayane
Hi, i know hubzilla is not AP, that it's zot. And AP and Ostatus support is via plugins.

When mentioned both diaspora and hubzilla, i was mentioning them as being members of the fediverse. Not reffering to whatever protocols they use.

@maryjane

I forgot, Pleroma also have OStatus support but I have serious doubts they'll keep it once more projects drop OStatus.

@Yulegen 🎄
@hankg That is not the majority view. Either way the thread is about the value of keeping OStatus support in Mastodon, and Diaspora is not a factor in that.
@hankg

GNU Social can follow any WebSub Atom feed, so it partially supports Diaspora the software (but not Diaspora the protocol, e.g. social.home doesn't do WebSub). Mastodon never did.

@clacke I was commenting on the second sentence not the first. Didn’t mean to derail an entire conversation so I’ll disengage now.

@Gargron Then some GNU social folks who think you have destroyed Fediverse because you have opened it to different groups of people would be satisfied too :D

I would favour phasing it out not earlier than in half a year - and to communicate that date very openly, so that people could decide to move their accounts.

@heluecht
@Gargron
1/2 Ok, i can understand Ostatus isn't the best piece of code in the planet. But in software projects decisions shouldn't be taken from a merely technical point of view, code is also political, and decisions about code have political implications. For example hubzilla has it's own protocol but they took the political decision of supporting other protocols via plugins. The decision of mastodon dropping Ostatus, at this moment, has a political... 1/2

@maryjane @heluecht @Gargron agreed, but is anyone talking about removing it *right now*? The original toot reads to me like "when GNU Social finally implements ActivityPub, OStatus will get removed".

@rysiek
Yes the word 'can' on the first sentance makes all the difference. Thats true and uf i overreacted i apologise. But the post is not specific regarding a timeframe.
@heluecht @Gargron

@maryjane @heluecht @Gargron no worries. We all feel strongly about important stuff. 👍🏾 :blobpats:

@heluecht @Gargron
2/2 Implication, it cuts out a part of the fediverse... But if it's going to happen it would be best if it happened in a fased way, like gor example a 6 month period from announcing to implementing. That could give time for other projects to migrate if they want, or implement AP plugins, give users time to migrate if tge project software they use dosent implrment support to AP. Male the thing smoother.
2/2

@heluecht @Gargron This is a good idea. #GnuSocial development is not very active. But I am sure it will motivate the adoption of AP.

@dragnucs I disagree. Once your federated network survives one severe #bifurcation (the #Pump.io split), you know it can survive others. The #ActivityPub addition is still somewhere in the process, but I doubt that defederating from the #OStstus part of the network would speed it up.
@gargron
@heluecht

@lnxw48a1
This is avlate reply, but ActivityPub has clear advantages over OStatus. OStatus has a few different protocols for different tasks, PubSub, OStatus, signaling etc. Also, discovery is not optimal, for example, if I just discover a user, my instance would think he only has 0 or 1 publication even if he has thousands. This is not the case with AP.

In my opinion, it is an improvement.
@heluecht @Gargron

@dragnucs What you said about #OStatus is not really true. #GNU_Social downloads more than just 1 or 2 posts when I subscribe to people, and #Mastodon also does and it did long before they added #ActivityPub.

@Gargron I think dropping #ostatus would only make sense at a point in time when:

- #Friendica deploys #activitypub into production

- #Pixelfed releases an official tagged version with activitypub support

Friendica 2018.12 is apparently a thing in development, but I have no idea if they'll manage to make the timeline.

#Socialhome also started work on implementing activitypub, but I am guessing they'll take their sweet time doing it :-).

@abbenm In the dev branch it uses both the diaspora protocol as always, and newly they also added activitypub although that implementation has not been fully completed yet, as far as I know.

@abbenm friendi.ca/2018/11/18/activity
You see, this announcment is only from November this year, and the last as yet released version of #Friendica is 2018.09 from September.

@abbenm It could really replace #Diaspora as a decentralised Facebook with enough users once every instance deploys it with #activitypub.

@mareklach I don't quite think any of frendica, diaspora, or hubzilla have quite cracked the code in terms of friendliness/useability the way mastodon has but I'm optimistic and I think frendica has arguably done the best of the three based on my limited sampling.

@abbenm I would say so too. The thing is, when people from the outside move to the #fediverse #Mastodon seems usable as a Twitter alternative, but they inevitably ask about a FB alternative as well. I have been referring them to #diaspora, but because of an outdated UI and a serious problem with user discoverability it no longer appears viable to me. I personally don’t use #Friendica, but have interacted with people here on masto who run their own Dev instances, and it seemed OK.

@abbenm #Friendica seems to have a slightly more polished UI than #hubzilla, and some user-created themes for it that I’ve seen are relatively nice, but the default themes that come bundled with the installation aren’t very appealing to be honest. I guess this puts many potential users off, so it’s definitely sometjing the developers should focus on.

@mareklach I think you're right. Part of me just really wants to be supportive. I'm on mastodon, in part, because I want it to work (but also because the community is really great and even now I think there's a kind of magic in the air here). I want frendica/hubzilla/diaspora to work.

But looking at squeet.me (just as one example), I see buttons for "friends conversations", "my posts and conversations", "conversations on this and other servers", "contacts", and "notifications." Getting there..

@abbenm Well yeah, they are trying to copy FBs interface way too much and its horrible. Facebook itself never looked good to attract me on there :-)

@jaywink

No. I meant that by removing #ostatus, we are bound to loose a few #gnusocial users, so dropping it could happen at the same time as we welcome new #activitypub users, instead of these two things happening separately?

We are having too much open issues for a release in a few days. In fact I guess it will be more a 2019.02 than a 2019.01.

@heluecht It's always better to take your time to do it right...

@mareklach @Gargron @jaywink TIL GangGo actually implemented AP the other month, so Friendica and Hubzilla aren't the only options for living in both Fediverse and Federation anymore!

@Gargron Technically not the last one. There is postActiv. But it doesn't plan adding AP. GNU Social right now has at least 142 online servers and at least 19k registrations. Lack of NodeInfo makes it difficult to measure active users. @dansup was one of the users who mentioned working on AP plugin. Contributions probably welcome. A web developer's definitely welcome: fsf.org/news/fsf-job-opportuni

@lightone Yeah, we need GNU Social and the family onboard as soon as possible before OStatus gets kicked to the curb. @Gargron @dansup

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