"Ability to cross-post from Twitter works against Mastodon adoption"
My thesis on this is simple. People choose the easiest path. If the destination is "try Mastodon", one path is "log on and use Mastodon" and the other is "set an automated cross-poster, keep using Twitter". So, people who might have otherwise committed to using Mastodon, for there not being another option to "get on it", now have the option not to.
I have observed this trend before and after the cross-poster became available.
@Gargron hell yeah go off gargron
@rubdos That works towards fediverse adoption. I have been talking about a specific direction.
@Gargron Good, I'll make sure to do that then!
I personally prefer the social protocols that exist within Mastodon. Bringing here the same spirit that has been prolific on Twitter would have a very negative impact on our experience here.
@gargron The problem in this, again and again, is: Choosing a "social network", messenger, ... isn't something an individual can do on her/his/its own. Usually you're wired with a certain community, and the larger it is, the more difficult moving from one network to another will be. Personally, I don't want cross-posting features at all - I *just* want to connect to my contacts and interact with them seamlessly, I do not want to have to care about which platform they are on. Look ...
That's still crossposting. The only difference is aesthetics. No convenience would be worth what we would lose. The diversity of the internet is what makes it worthwhile. It would be a nightmare as far as harassment. Being able to mass-post across any & all sites with one click would make having distinct sites pointless. It would mean a homogenized internet which would lend itself to corporations/gov't controlling it all. It's against the spirit of the internet.
@gargron ... at it from another point of view: Many of us have been blaming Facebook and Twitter to be "walled gardens" and "data silos" - for pretty good reasons as it's hardly possible to communicate with users "inside" if you're "outside". Shouldn't we do better and rather try to eliminate "inside" and "outside" altogether? 😉
you can't.. since those outside refuse the federation. it's not #mastodon fault, design or architecture. those making it impossible to talk to wherever your friends are, are the closed gardens, not the fediverse.
what could Mastodon do more than allowing the remapping of the "public square" on the open web fediverse?
it's up to other closed gardens to open the gates.
@z428 @Gargron I disagree on the #activitypub bit, that's the same of saying : we should not use all the same email protocol cos it will give pop3/imap a monopoly on email delivery. Protocols are what makes the web inter-operable, hence #indieweb & fediverse could comment on each others posts simply by adopting the protocol; anyone is free to make a new interface for it as long as it abide to the protocol, that's why the web still works right ?
@benborges Difficult. I tend to agree but then again, unlike e-mail or HTTP (where essentially the same protocols have been in use for like three decades), open social networks have been pretty much about re-implementing similar ideas in different, incompatible protocols ever since. That's why, right now, Diaspora, the fediverse, Movim, .... seem like "open silos" that hardly play together.
@z428 @Gargron well some protocol will win over the others right ? in theory the one that brings most features, security, stability and open source..I think at some point it will be impossible for Diaspora & others to avoid it much longer..the benefits of joining the fediverse will outpace technological concept purity and I think in this case it can't hurt the ecosystem...
@benborges Again, I don't disagree, but just imagine the time same would have happened with e-mail or web. 😉 Not arguing against evolution in protocols, but so far pretty often it feels just like people implement breaking protocols while considering compatibility to other existing similar protocols someone elses problem.
@z428 @Gargron I guess the big difference with #activitypub is 1) it comes from a W3C working group that improved the specs basing itself on the state of previous similar protocol (statusnet, OStatus) 2) Diaspora founder seems to like it : https://medium.com/we-distribute/a-quick-guide-to-the-free-network-c069309f334 maybe the future is going to bring new shiny good news on this aspect, I think there is high chance to see this happening, it will have its own network effect
@z428 diaspora, movim, and activitypub also deal with different use cases, though!
- movim is an extension of xmpp status/mood, and is intended to build on personal messaging with your contacts.
- diaspora has never focused on compatibility, and has doggedly stuck to their own protocol because their entire sharing model is reversed; it's not a follower model.
- activitypub is a web technology meant to link together disparate streams of data
@trwnh These however seem more like different technical approaches. I doubt the actual *use cases* (as in what end users do with the system) really differ between these networks. From that point of view, in example mastodon and peertube seem way more different in use case and target group than mastodon and movim ...?
@z428 disagree. mastodon and peertube are both fundamentally web sites, passing web documents around. a profile on a web site is a 1-many service. movim is... not that.
if you simplify the use case to "communication" then you end up ignoring the intricacies of how people actually use each system. for example, it is possible to implement a chat service entirely within activitypub, but *should* you? that's a lot of overhead for transient use cases. @benborges @Gargron
@trwnh For what I see, mastodon is more of a (micro)blogging platform focussed on smaller text messages whereas peertube is an environment for hosting video clips. Movim is closer to Facebook or Diaspora (longer posts, embedded online chat). That's the level of abstraction I had in mind, even tough on a "lower" level I agree with you.
@z428 Even on a higher level, I wouldn't say that IRC and XMPP serve the same use case at all. You wouldn't join a chat room and expect private communication, in the same way that you wouldn't expect private communication on a publishing network. In that sense, Peertube and Mastodon both serve a "publishing documents to a stream" use case.
@trwnh Maybe it's a filter bubble issue; at least in my environment, real "end users" don't even think about making a distinction between "communication" and "publishing" network, same as (in Facebook, in example), borders between posting articles, commenting articles, forwarding articles as private messages and entirely message-driven communication are fuzzy if existent at all. From that point of view, it seems of no real importance whether there's something like ...
@trwnh ... Movim (basically a communication / chat system with publishing features bolted on top) or Diaspora (a publishing system with messaging and chat added to the mix) or something like Mastodon (which might be in between somewhere). It won't matter, either, whether chat or publishing is first, whether chat is activitypub or XMPP or anything else. That's just *how* use cases are implemented, not *what* use cases are about.
@z428 My point is less about the "how"/"why" and moreso that the protocol diversity is a direct result of use-case diversity. The Diaspora protocol was built with reverse-sharing in mind. Movim is an extension of a protocol that was built with 1-1 chatting in mind. IRC was built with live rooms in mind. ActivityPub was built to be a very general protocol for sharing data between websites. The stuff that gets built on top of those protocols can't really be built on just one protocol.
@z428 So it's not about what came first or which was bolted onto which, but rather, which use cases are naturally supported? Note that ActivityPub is currently having issues with identity management and with encryption schemes, because it was built for web servers; you can consider ActivityPub a poor base for a 1-1 chat system.
Facebook is a bad example because it's the Everything Network. It bolts together disparate experiences like chatting and posting -- and it still used XMPP for chat.
@trwnh Yes, but actually the "Everything Network" is exactly my point and (as far as I see things here) pretty much what mere end users expect, assuming the "all-in" approach makes for a rather seamless experience. That's why, in example, I see there should be tight collaboration between Movim / XMPP people and AP folks (because there might be synergies in the publishing fields, and XMPP definitely can manage the 1-1 or conference chat system). Right now, there are too many technical ...
@trwnh ... borders and apparently too few approaches to actually unify these things to come up with something that, to an end user, provides an experience on par with or even better than Facebook and *still* is less "silo" and less privacy-invading.
@z428 Even if you simplify everything and say "OK, no redundant protocols", you still end up with stuff that can't be done entirely within any one protocol, and you still end up with overlaps. SMTP and XMPP can both coexist because emailing and chatting are sufficiently different use cases despite being fundamentally the exact same (sharing text with attachments to your contacts). Should SMTP be deprecated, and should email servers implement XMPP instead?
@trwnh Honest answer? I don't really care. What I see, right now, is that more and more people give up on both e-mail and all "other" chat solutions, especially for the day-to-day internal communication, and rely upon platforms such as Slack that seem to bring "best of both worlds" and even have a fully searchable "eternal archive". For many use cases, something like Slack or XMPP with a "transparent bridge" to include external contacts via then-legacy protocols (like SMTP) might be ...
@trwnh ... a perfectly fine choice. I don't per se want to argue for or against any particular protocol, but what I see in day-to-day life (Slack, Google Apps for Business, Apple Cloud...) is that more and more users actually don't care much about protocols and want an integrated solution instead, just like web-based GMail that also includes live chat and even video conferencing at a fingertip in a homogenous UI. If we need different protocols for that - fine. But at times I wonder ...
@trwnh ... whether the "open community" lacks sort of a vision to get all these things together in a homogenous, seamless, structured way without building yet another silo.
@z428 Now we're talking about the app level and not the protocol level. The GMail webapp still uses multiple protocols; it's more akin to having a GTalk pane next to your GMail pane. Likewise, you can build an email client that had XMPP chat embedded in the side (e.g. Thunderbird, Evolution, eM Client, and so on).
I wouldn't call either part of that an "open silo". Even then, the only "silo" aspect is in incompatible data representations -- you can still build a converter or bridge as you said.
@z428 With respect to open social networks, you'd still have to define what you mean by "social network". Technically, email is a social network. Technically, so are phone networks. And so is the postal service. And so is meeting IRL. The contexts are not all the same though, are they?
@z428 I suspect that part of what ails you is the lack of consistent and shared identity between the disparate use cases, and this is in fact what Facebook provides that all these so-called "open silos" don't: a consistent profile that people can connect to.
Would you have less of an issue if you could use the same profile/account on Mastodon, Movim, and Diaspora?
@trwnh I thought to be on what you call "app level" already all the time - as,the point of interface for end users to realize their use cases. That's what I mean, and that's where I see protocol choices as a technical detail and integration as way more important (and incompatibility way more difficult to handle).
@z428 The incompatibility stems not just from the protocol, but also from the use case. How do you handle following people inside a chat app? Do their posts get translated into direct chats with you, or do you simply not receive their posts? Do their posts get set as a chat status and then get overwritten by the latest post? There are too many questions and no one way to answer them all. The metaphors aren't the same.
@sl007 interested by your in dev CMS, curious where this might lead :)
@Gargron It's aʪo k㏌da the same issue as cross-platform applicatio㎱ and whether they make L㏌ux adoption spike more or not．If you make it too easy，then it doesn't do its ㏌tended job．If you make it too hard，it doesn't appeal to enough people You need a balance．Mastodon-exclusⅳe only features that you demonstrate．Cross-post㏌g is sadly ㏌ the too friendly category．It doesn't push people to the switch．Do it the eⅵl apple way，make it appealing from the outside and only share a tiny bit.
@Gargron The issue as I see it is this: From a technical standpoint, Mastodon is as good if not better than Facebook and Twitter. But everyone has their friends over on those platforms, as well as their entire year long posting history! How do you convince everyone to switch to an ActivityPub service when they have to start anew and won't find most of their friends here?
@Gargron I too have that problem, hence why I use both currently. My mother is only on Facebook, people I know are themselves mostly on Twitter. They in turn only use those because that's where everyone they know are. They could tell their friends "join me on this new platform", but many folks don't care and see no reason to bother.
@Gargron One thing that could be done is having the ability to import your entire profile and posting history (including media) from other platforms. An idea for an addon perhaps? But that would wreak many Mastodon servers due to the huge amount of data.
And of course, Facebook and Twitter could decide to support ActivityPub. Which won't happen as it doesn't go well with their model, and it's also harder to censor whereas they need to tell governments they're doing their best to fight bad guys.
I am not sure how plausible that is since you would be forced to have API access, something that FB and Twitter are locking down to the point of irrelevance.
And neither platform allows a user to leave without deleting everything that a user is attached too. From there point of view, if you leave it is with only the clothes on your back.
I'd say the biggest issue is that bringing your bags from Twitter / Facebook to Mastodon would cause some instance owners to wake up with 100's of GB's of drive space disappearing overnight. Then there's the concern of impersonation.
@Gargron What about the case where someone cross-post's to both platforms. Then they get notifications for replies on mastodon. They reply back to mastodon replies, and slowly become more and more involved with mastodon.
@Terci it's fine imo if they actually check mastodon for notifications, but a lot of crossposters don't even do that
or their tweets/retweets get dumped here en masse and without content warnings and it's all negative or toxic because twitter
it's about good-faith effort, basically -- crossposting often indicates a lack of it. not to say that some people aren't doing it wisely, though! they just tend to be fewer.
@Gargron Also when they're linking to an interesting discussion on Twitter they're basically going "you could take part in this if you were on Twitter".
It's practically an unintended ad.
@Gargron Thoughts on mastodon → twitter cross posters?
I have one going to avoid having to look at the site whilst maintaining iterations. I have though been wondering if it provides a reason for my friends to not bother using mastodon since they can still interact with me on twitter.
@Gargron I'm wondering: if a Twitter poster creates a sizeable following on Mastodon, will that make it easier for the poster to make the jump when Twitter disappoints. I suspect, audiences and how the platform treats you are highly prized.
I do see your point btw
On the other hand I have found that “set up cross poster to copy my toots to Twitter” has helped a lot in both easing my adoption of Mastodon and in quietly luring folks to my instance and Mastodon in general. Works both ways.
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