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If every decent software engineer knows that faces and fingerprints cannot be passwords because they're neither secret nor can you change them, then why does Apple, which is supposed to be a top-notch tech company, release features like that

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Everything about Apple's behavior makes more sense if you think of them as a marketing company.

@Gargron Because some 3 letter agencies wouldn't mind getting scans of everyones faces

@Gargron And since the apple-FBI thing I wouldn't be surprised if they wanted something that could be read even if the owner was uncooperative

@gargron becaise they're "good nuff" for casual mobile users who just want to keep their kids/siblings/relatives from getting into their phone and don't want to remember/type in a PIN or password every time to unlock their phone?

@Gargron Combination of convenience and what is likely the best implementation you can have of biometrics. Cases in point: biometric data is locally stored on the device, not uploaded to a server. Biometric security can also be disabled in iOS 11 by hitting the sleep/wake button five times, falling back to the passcode screen.

@Gargron For consumers, good security is a huge pain in the ass for them. Better to have something less truly secure, but easier for them, while still having as much protection on it as possible to prevent abuse. (See also the new Cop Mode thing i mentioned in the previous toot.)

@gargron Are you telling me that maybe, just maybe, decisions at apple are driven by the marketing and design departments, damn what the security guys say?

@tekk @gargron I'm not 100% sure the design guys have much of a say any more

@Gargron there's an important word in that sentence and it's the word "supposed"

@Gargron Because decent software engineers aren't the target market

@Gargron its how they can give "backdoors" to the Feds. They've taken the hardware and not software road.

@Gargron I don't know, maybe because Apple isn't just decent software engineers, but some security people as well, trying to deliver actual solutions instead of mostly meaningless maxims. I'd seriously expect Apple blows everything else out of the water even with just fingerprints.

@pony Cops can just put it to your face after arrest and browse your phone without a warrant. Doesn't sound like a good system to me.

@Gargron So let's deliver system that by default will ask for a password that you'd need to type every single time you want to unlock the phone (without being seen), must be reasonably strong, that is long and complex, and if you ever manage to forget it, all that was on the phone is lost forever. That sounds like an amazing system.

@Gargron Unlike using simple fast biometrics to unlock the phone and only use stronger authentication where really needed, like, say, private messenger app.

@gargron @pony in the US anyway, you can be coerced into providing a fingerprint to unlock a touch phone because legally your rights against self incrimination apply to knowledge you may choose to espouse, and your fingerprint isn't knowledge

so, we're already there even without face scanning 😒

@gargron mmmmmm I'm actually pretty happy with how TouchID is implemented from a security perspective. Your password is still required after any reboot or significant downtime, or for sensitive operations. It's not being used as a password, more as a proof of continued presence during inactivity.

Security is a usability/threat tradeoff and having TouchID enabled allows me to have a much longer password then would be practical normally. So overall it's a net positive.

@Gargron gives the government a backdoor while also claiming there are no backdoors

@Gargron apple will always choose apparent "ease of use" over good engineering #UXtheater

@Gargron worst still fingers can be stolen, and are not easily returnable, so are eyes, just read dan brown! ....

@gargron Because Apple is not a top-notch tech company, and Apple is not your friend.

@Gargron Humans are phenomenally bad at password management and generation - the sweeping majority of passwords are recycled, an obvious personal reference, and not long enough. Hell, I'm a software engineer and most of my passwords are inadequate and I know it but I can't be arsed to make a decent one

A 3D face scanner is harder to spoof than a 4-digit pin, which can be shoulder surfed. A 3D model is harder to make. A photographic face recognizer is useless, however.

@Gargron because face scan is cool, it looks like something people watch on TV. General population love that