can I say that it's *really distressing* to hear POC say that they might as well leave mastodon.
Not distressing as in "I'm made anxious by hearing their complaint", (though it does make me anxious), "and wish I didn't have to hear their complaints"
It's distressing that we haven't made a space that listens to their voices and that things are bad enough that "I might as well go back to TWITTER" makes sense, like twitter is a more welcoming place for them.
THAT'S A PROBLEM
@tcql honestly?
I'm not entirely sure why the idea that Twitter could be a more welcoming space for _anybody_ has to be this extremely shocking idea.
Like sure it's terrible for some people, but great for others! Just like any social media network! Hell I've had much better experiences on REDDIT than Mastodon. yknow.
The whole "we're better than Y site" mentality drives me nuts coz it often comes from sites where I've faced a fair bit of trouble.
@creatrixtiara @tcql It's shocking because being safer is one of the core goals of the project. And also because we confuse software, and who is currently using the software. For example, Mastodon would allow a group of activists to create an instance dedicated to the BLM movement, and you wouldn't depend on some white CEO's approval and tolerance, it'd be entirely within your hands and control. Given this potential I do consider it shocking that folks would want to go back to Twitter... but!
@creatrixtiara @tcql What I hear a lot on here is PoC folks looking for fellow PoC to follow. That's where having an instance based on common interests beats a general-purpose one like mastodon.social. Perhaps we should examine whether there's any instance that already exists that would allow those people to use the local timeline feature to find each other; and whether we can do more to highlight that instance and promote it.
@Gargron @tcql That's asking for a LOT of steps: create Instance if it doesn't exist already, finding that instance, getting enough of a critical mass of people, etc etc. With Twitter people are just THERE already, you don't need to learn how to set up Twitter on top of it.
Also just saying "it's safer!!" doesn't actually mean it's safer.
> I'm not entirely sure why the idea that Twitter could be a more welcoming space for _anybody_ has to be this extremely shocking idea.
Because Twitter has a sewer of WN running through it, seemingly from top to bottom?
like honestly I think it's because so many of us have had/seen terrible experiences on Twitter/etc. and if explicitly trying to do better
isn't actually getting better results
it implies there's no reason to try at all, there's no hope period :\
@sydneyfalk @Gargron @tcql yeah see this sense of defeatism isn't actually all that helpful.
Twitter has been around a lot longer than Mastodon has. Making Mastodon trustworthy is going to take time and effort. Giving up after less than a year just means there wasn't really that interest to be actually "safer" - it more communicates "hmph well they don't want to believe us so fuck them"
> I'm not entirely sure why the idea that Twitter could be a more welcoming space for _anybody_ has to be this extremely shocking idea.
> this sense of defeatism isn't actually all that helpful
This isn't coming from a sense of defeatism -- this is me trying to explain why it's shocking.
(I fully admit I HAVE a sense of defeatism, but I'm not expressing it -- I just think it's why I see this particular reaction's chain of internal logic.)
@sydneyfalk @Gargron @tcql I'm referring to the idea that this implies there's "no hope at all".
With respect, 'implies' is not 'means'. It's 'implies'.
If you fail at something when explicitly trying it, one potential implication is that it's not achievable at all, and that's a disturbing one.
@sydneyfalk @Gargron @tcql It's possible that anything is not achievable, not a lot of things in life are guaranteed. But the fact that it could *fail* doesn't mean it's not worth trying.
Why is the possibility of failure so disturbing? I don't understand this logic.
@creatrixtiara @sydneyfalk @tcql Um sorry but your previous message to me sounded nothing *but* defeatist - you shot down my idea on how to possibly solve the problem and all but said we should all give up and go to Twitter. :/
@Gargron @sydneyfalk @tcql who are you referring to, me or Sydney Falk? If to me - I said that idea requires a lot of work and also that saying a space is "safer" is a lot different than actually being safer (Ello had the same problem when it started).
If what you're getting out of this is "well just give up then" that's on you, not me.
@Gargron @sydneyfalk @tcql I am very VERY concerned that critiquing the viability of one idea is now taken as some sort of statement of "well then just give up now". It's an idea, one of hopefully many. It can - and should - be refined.
having said that: I think that's about the only thing I can contribute to this discussion, I'll bow out now -- please feel free to untag me from here, I'm not equipped to try to navigate any further on this river of thought
@Gargron @creatrixtiara I feel like the gamut of things a platform allows is different from what it -supports-. We know PoC, particularly black people, are likely to be under-represented, under-resourced, less trusted & worse treated (including by people who wholeheartedly want to be allies) in software & social media arenas.
A BLM instance CAN exist, so that it DOESN'T maybe indicates failures of the mastodon community to go beyond a negative peace+put $£€+time where we say our principles are.
@creatrixtiara @Gargron imagining, arbitrarily, a BLM instance as the goal we want to achieve, allowing someone to set one up is different from saying, e.g 'we volunteer admin support for such an instance' , 'our next patreon pledge goal is gathering funds for the creation of such an instance', or whatever...
There are greater institutional & other practical obstacles for black members of the mastodon community, so it seems reasonable that we look for ways to give those members better support?
@paralithode @creatrixtiara I have reached out to Deray about this, he didn't respond beyond DM'ing me "hi" back. I was ready to do the whole technical side of it.
And I'm pretty sure it's not my place to setup a BLM instance on my own.
@Gargron @paralithode That is...Wow. "Tokenistic" doesn't even begin to cover it. This sounds like "well I just did the bare minimum and it didn't work so you can't tell me I didn't try!!"
Deray isn't the founder of BLM, and even then he's not the most prominent part of it. You can't just plug any old tech tool to communities you haven't built relationships with. You haven't given them reason to trust you or Mastodon yet.
@creatrixtiara @paralithode I don't know anyone else.
@Gargron @paralithode This is where research and paying attention comes in handy. It's not like they're Anonymous. Spend time reading up, getting to know people, ACTUALLY meeting then where they are.
@Gargron @creatrixtiara if mastodon.social I appreciate that you're a software building guy–and if were a different kind of more corporate or more co-op-y concern it would be easier to say 'hello, outreach dept/community, please look into this, I'm not a social butterfly.' I think as time goes on it will become more & more important for us to actively nurture more adept social & activist types of people & engage them on these kind of, often v.challenging, "soft skills outreach missions."
@paralithode @creatrixtiara One small follow-up question - if you believe a dedicated instance won't help, do you think the groups [1] feature might help instead?
[1]: A group is an entity hosted on one instance (just like an account) which can be joined by accounts from other instances; a mention of the group is forwarded to all members of the group; it's like a way to sign up and get notified about topics or interests
@Gargron @paralithode I haven't heard of this group version before, but it's not technological solutions I'm angling at. This is an issue of community, of the people already here, of the people running things. Mastodon writ large keeps trying to sell itself as "no Nazis" but there's not a lot of "here's the people that are here instead".
@Gargron @paralithode I ask you honestly: why is it important to you that Black Lives Matter (or some other activist minority group) uses Mastodon?
@creatrixtiara @paralithode I think Mastodon is a good tool for activism because you control it rather than rely on tolerance from the top - and I like to see my creative work being used by people, especially if they work for a good cause.
@Gargron @paralithode Wouldn't the activists be the people to decide whether any given tool is actually useful for their work?
@creatrixtiara (By the way this is the second time that you put things I didn't say in quotes as if I said them, I ask you to please not do that)
@Gargron that's why I said "sounds like".
@creatrixtiara @Gargron @paralithode +1. Well, +1000.
You need to build actual relationships with people first. You need to have tangible investment (not the money kind) in each other's communities to build trust.
You also need to anticipate the unique needs of the groups you're hoping to attract, and have features in place to meet those needs, or be willing to prioritize them.
I have more thoughts on this but am tired
Some general challenges to getting a very wide demographic of people adopt Mastodon:
- literal social networks. Why should someone go where none of their friends are, if their goal is to communicate with friends?
- homogeneity. Right now it's very white and tech dude-y and most people who aren't do not want to be that one person in the room.
- tech literacy. Most ppl aren't particularly tech literate and don't have to be in their daily life, don't care about F/LOSS, decentralization etc.
- features/development. At this point FB, Twitter, etc., are very fully-featured, to the point of bloat. Mastodon, OTOH, is still missing key features that users accustomed to major social networks rely on and expect.
I can think of several ways to make Masto more friendly to new ppl or to do outreach to various communities but have work stuff to do, sorry
Anyway this all is to say I completely understand why ppl go back to Twitter, despite its faults. There are considerable challenges to address, both technical and social, before Mastodon is ready for widespread adoption.
@jeffcliff right. English-speaking Mastodon, let's say
@Gargron @paralithode has some good insight about the institutional and structural barriers. I would suggest taking a look at those - building more supportive proactive relationships, supporting the Black & PoC userbase actually on here, listening to what they're after rather than looking for a chance to plug Mastodon when you can.
@tcql @creatrixtiara but: I understand that Twitter has a lot more people and already established communities of PoC and it's much easier to get support there currently. This is what I've been told by some folks who left for reasons like this.
Hearing it is of course always heartbreaking. But I'm not sure what I can do to help with this.