@Gargron it's because people judge actions, not words. For each Lenin and Marx there is a Stalin and a Mao
@sanchopanca @Gargron >implying lenin wasn't trash too
@Concerned_Catgirl @sanchopanca Lenin was trash. Marx wasn't. Mensheviks weren't
@Gargron @sanchopanca please, take a moment to google and then read murray bookchin
@sanchopanca @Gargron in all seriousness, if Lenin wasn't trash then how do we explain the suppresion of the green armies, the Kronsdadt Uprising, the black army, the tambov uprising, the redirecting energy from revolutionary change into the russian empire draped under a red flag????
@tomas The mensheviks wanted to institute a more or less western-style democracy in place of the czar
@Gargron or is it not about communism? I am bad in flags
@sanchopanca that's the antifa flag
@gargron Threats are a crime, to be dealt with by the police. Upset individuals deciding to become vigilantes is not the solution.
@mpjgregoire @gargron Yea because police isn't like massively racist or so. Like sorry, you have to be very privileged to see police as an option when they routinely kill minorities, when they regularly protect actual nazis and lock away protestors... if police actually *dealt* with nazis and locked anyone wearing a swastika away immediately, sure, we could maybe say this. But that isn't the real world.
@Gargron Sans compter le guy qui veut faire un grand bon en avant à son peuple 🙃
@Gargron Which is worse? Fascism or keeping fascism in its place? The antifa aren't an organized movement, and in fact, most are anarchists. W̶e̶ they are just people with a vested interest in stopping hatred and Nazism. And sometimes, counterprotests aren't enough to shut these people up. Although things can get a little violent at times, there are also good things that happen because of antifa. There are numerous accounts of black-bloc counterprotesters saving people's lives in Charlottesville.
With all the insults and verbal harassment I received lately talking about this topic, I feel called into question.
I politely disagree, violence against a minority is never justified.
Xenophobia, homophobia, racism are complex phenomena which, in my opinion, can't be issued by violently assaulting "wrong-thinkers" (a.k.a. "punching nazis"). Most of the time, these people are marginalized, living at the edge of society, thus developing this kind of resentment.
A better approach would be to strive for a more equal, diverse and inclusive society, which doesn't marginalize or leave behind anyone.
Problem is, antifa people are just punching nazis instead of fighting against the system that creates "nazis" in the first place (read capitalism).
@Gargron @gabriele
There is no point to justify.
There is also nobody being attackt for being afraid of LGBTQ* or people of different color
But yes shure people are pushed back if they are about to create a violent enviorment towards minorities
You can think at home what ever you want
But if you use your racism to mobalize against others antifascist are there to stop it as best as they can
By just using your own argunents you should like #antifa
douple standart?
I was an antifascist myself in the past. But since a couple of years, I really feel they don't represent me at all.
Basically, what I'm trying to say is this:
Capitalism -> Extreme inequality -> Social exclusion -> Hate vs minorities
If you add social exclusion at the end of the chain, you are not going to solve the problem, you are only going to increase the hate. Frankly, I don't think it's the right strategy.
I also found an article recently, that coincidentally summarizes really well my thought on the matter.
(I normally explain by myself what I think, but the limited space of a toot it's not a pleasant way to write or read long essays)
---
"Antifa in theory and in practice"
https://www.counterpunch.org/2017/10/09/antifa-in-theory-and-in-practice/
@gabriele I've read the article more as being a personl battle around “Marie-Anne Boutoleau” (a pseudonym for Ornella Guyet).
Here a slightly different perspective;
https://mastodon.social/@paulfree14/98835238815390297
@gabriele
> If you add social exclusion at the end of the chain, you are not going to solve the problem...
Yes I agree on that. Bigotry, racism, sexism, homophobia.....all that is increasing "social exclusion at the end of the chain".
Racism is excluding ideology and people. Excluding racism is excluding an ideology in oder to include people.
The target is the ideology not the persons. Within racism the target are other people.
Excluding racism lead to less exclusion.
@Gargron they're all stick figures Eugen