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youtu.be/QMfxJEfb4lw

A really cool company making a really cool product! And a really well produced video as always from The Fully Charged Show.

@Lingondraken Hah, I'm watching that episode of Fully Charged right now.

Honestly my biggest complaint is that the pickup's bed is too short, at 1.4 m (~4.6').

They try to claim it's midsize, but the true midsizes have at least 5' (~1.5 m) beds (the Colorado/Canyon and Ridgeline are longer even in four-door), and really this thing is a full-size.

And in full-sizes, the norm is to offer 5.5' (~1.7 m) and 6.5' (~2.0 m) beds in four-doors, and up to 8' (~2.4 m) in regular or extended cab.

@Lingondraken And yes, some of the issue is mitigated with the frunk and the pass-through storage behind the rear seat (although old full-size pickups had space behind the seat anyway), but it's still not going to be ideal for using the truck for real work.

(Then again, it's all the people buying "lifestyle pickups" that don't need them that are buying expensive pickups, and funding this thing... hopefully they come out with a longer bed option in the future.)

@bhtooefr
Well, being a European, pickups makes no sense to me for any kind of private customer, so I cannot talk about that part of it. But the utility and technology side of it is really cool, and it is a new company with many interesting ideas. As a nature camper it could be really interesting though.

Would be fantastic if they made a deal with Tesla to use their charger network, too. Seemingly would be quite easy in most of the worlds regions; where you find the Mennekes CCS plug.

@Lingondraken Yeah, I'd guess that 2/3 to 3/4 of the pickups sold in the US are being used as tall versions of 1970s American body-on-frame V8 sedans.

And the bed's too short for a camper unless you just bring a tent with you - those things usually need at least a 6.5' bed!

@bhtooefr
I was referring to a tent, or pulling a camper along with it. :)

@Lingondraken ...why didn't I think of towing one, especially given that I usually think of camper trailers as making more sense than camper vans unless you actually are living in it

@bhtooefr
I would be interested to see what sort of ranges towing a camper would give. I mean, I have seen some videos with Model X's towing, but they tend to drive on highway roads at high-ish speed. Would be interesting to see some prolonged test results of reasonable driving on country roads, at the maximum towing speed limit (80 km/h). In any case, even with an X100D I am not sure it would drive far enough to be reasonable between stops. A Rivian with almost double the kWh should be easy.

@Lingondraken In the US, towing speed limits are now uncommon outside of full-on semi trucks, so people expect to go high speeds (and the maximum speed limit on most country roads in the US is 55-65 mph (89-105 km/h) depending on how far west you are).

The towing vids of an X 90D I saw (all Bjørn Nyland's videos, in Norway) involved a lot of... stopping at every Supercharger as well as some intermediate CHAdeMO chargers.

@Lingondraken It would also, of course, depend on the camper.

A 15' Hi-Lo, may not even notice it.

Some ridiculous 30' thing with slideouts and shit, and no attempts at streamlining, you'll notice it. A lot.

@bhtooefr
Yeah those frequent stops is just not good enough. You can absolutely just go overkill with a Rivian I think and solve it that way.

Another idea that has been on my mind is a camper (if legalisation allowed it) or a motor home with a large battery attached to it. In the camper's case it could help to push/pull (again, legal requirements...). And a EV motor home would be simpler then.

Of course, it is a lot of money. But what if it could double as V2G or V2H when stationary at home?

@Lingondraken Done and done.

insideevs.com/electric-camper-

80 kWh battery, two 40 kW motors with torque vectoring, solar panels, and with V2H support.

@bhtooefr Well look at that! Of course, such a thing would absolutely not be legal here as far as I have understood. The problem is that it is counter as something you are supposed to tow, but at the same time is motorised. Legalisation getting in the way of innovation is so... Meh.

But should be fixable! And the price per kWh looks to be going down and down over the next decade, too.

Sidenote: They showed it attached to a BMW i3 with a tow bar. Yet, no such thing exists in reality. :(

@Lingondraken Although it is a European company that's trying to make it happen, so maybe that'll help with lobbying?

The other thing is, with the battery and with motors only being used for regenerative braking, and a high voltage DC link to the car somehow to act as a range extender, that might at least get past some of the legality issues, although it would mean that the added weight would all be borne by the car (whereas with propulsion, you could argue that it reduces load on the car).

@Lingondraken And in the US, where you can legally tow with anything whether or not the manufacturer certified the vehicle for it, there are hitches available for the BMW i3.

(Now, if you get into a crash, and the trailer is determined to be a contributing factor, you could be held liable for the crash personally, and your insurance may even refuse to pay out for the crash. So, you're taking a hell of a lot of risk towing with a car not rated to tow. But, you won't get pulled over for it.)

@bhtooefr
You are probably very unlikely to be pulled over here too, but that might depend on where you are (Germany vs rural Scandinavia :P). But the insurance thing makes it practically a no-go for anyone.

A -lot- of people have dropped their Model 3 reservation due to the tow bar shining with it's absence...

@Lingondraken Yeah, I've seen a lot of noise about that on TMC, and that does seem to be a rather large oversight for Europe.

(Conversely, in the US, people don't usually tow with cars, and will get a SUV or pickup to tow a tiny utility trailer or whatever, so that probably influences their priorities here.)

@Lingondraken For that matter, a lot of cars that are rated for silly high tow ratings in Europe (1600+ kg) are rated for zero towing in the US.

There's a few factors causing that.

* We use more automatic transmissions that aren't able to handle towing loads adequately.
* We expect to go 70-90 MPH while towing, meaning we need a lot more tongue weight (10-15% is the guideline here, versus 4-7% in the EU), reducing what can safely be towed.
* High speed also puts more demands on the drivetrain.

@bhtooefr
I read somewhere, I think, that a big reason is how trailers are built. We have a different balancing system for them here as opposed to the U.S which puts a lot less stress on the car.

I mean, a car is seen as lacking something really obvious if you remove a tow bar (or indeed, a roof rack). It is almost like missing a random seat, or having no radio.

@Lingondraken We put more load on the tow bar because your balancing is outright dangerous at the speeds we expect to be able to tow (and it's also dangerous to drive that slowly in many cases, because people aren't expecting it on our roads).

@Lingondraken That said, we do have systems now that reduce the weight carried by the vehicle, while still allowing a significant forward weight distribution for trailer stability, by levering the back end of the vehicle up using the trailer's weight: youtube.com/watch?v=mkewkvU8Ot

@Lingondraken Additionally, our licensing requirements for towing are much more lax.

A normal driver's license here allows me to drive any single vehicle with a weight rating up to 26,000 lbs (~11.8 t) with a trailer of up to 10,000 lbs (~4.5 t), or any combination of vehicle and trailer up to 26,000 lbs weight rating (so if my truck had a 10,000 pound weight rating, I could tow a 16,000 pound trailer legally).

@bhtooefr
I mean, they had us cheering loudly some time ago when the towing equipment was mentioned in the 3's manual. But since then, nothing... We had expected it to be revealed when European orders started.

It is not even like most people want to pull caravans for hundreds of kilometers; most people just want to pull a lightweight trailer to the recycling center with garden stuff; freight furniture home from IKEA or maybe pull a snowmobile/lawnmower/etc. No matter if consumption is tripled.

@Lingondraken Yeah, whereas Americans would buy a full-size pickup, put the garden stuff or the furniture in the bed, and then tow the snowmobile or lawnmower on the lightweight trailer you mention.

@Lingondraken (Or sometimes, if the truck's bed is longer, get ramps and drive the snowmobile or lawnmower up into the bed, but modern pickups have such high beds, and many have shorter beds now, so that's not so practical.)

@Lingondraken This basically means that we'd rather have double or triple the consumption *constantly*, rather than only when we're actually hauling a load.

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