Unix will give you enough rope to shoot yourself in the foot. If you didn’t think rope would do that, you should have read the man page.

Gnu/Linux man-pages are often unclear. Openbsd man-pages will have clear examples of first, where to place the foot, and second, how to hold the rope.

That is why it's easier to shoot yourself in the foot in openbsd, and when your foot hurts on Linux, it's easier to Google it.

#bsd #Linux #humor <- just in case

@Qwxlea @LoganDice
I think you could have just gone with the first two.
#humor just in case.

@LoganDice it's a problem of software and not the system imo

@LoganDice Contrary to popular belief, Unix /is/ user friendly.

It's just quite selective who its friends are.

@K0nrad @LoganDice
Yeah, so much this :D

On a serious note:
This reminds me of the "user friendly" vs "easy to use" distinction that appeared in some thread.

Mainstream socnets and the like may be easy to use, but they're user hostile in that they betray you and manipulate you behind your back.

Unix is user friendly in that it obeys and serves the user, but isn't easy to use for newbies.
I'd argue it's easy to use once you learn it. And it wants you to learn it.

@Wolf480pl @K0nrad @LoganDice unix was literally and purposefully designed to create an exclusive “fellowship” like the masons or monks. “unix” is kind of a pun hinting in that direction

@zensaiyuki @K0nrad @LoganDice
I thought it was a pun on "multics", which was a design-by-committee system that was so overengineered that it never became successful. Ken Thompson et al. foresaw this at the beginning, so they quit the Multics project and made Unix in a way that would be practical.

Why do you think it was designed to create an exclusive "fellowship"?

@Wolf480pl @K0nrad @LoganDice 1. the whole point of a pun is that it has multiple meanings.
2. [see image]

@zensaiyuki @K0nrad @LoganDice
why do you think they fellowship they're talking about was meant to be exclusive or mason-like?

@Wolf480pl @K0nrad @LoganDice it might have been intended that way or not but that is how unix (and vi/emacs/linux/and so on) in practice: i have literally lost friends pointing out the objectively bad design of vi. you’re right it wanrs you to learn- and become emotionally invested after spending a lot of time and effort on it. it’s stockholme syndrome in a box. better designs are possible without comprimise on the good parts of unix.

@Wolf480pl @K0nrad @LoganDice but even modestly, its design was optimsed around modems and teletypes being slow (pictured), this technology is ancient but our interfaces still hamstrung by emulating literal typewriters

@zensaiyuki @K0nrad @LoganDice
are you talking about the heap of legacy code in xterm responsible for emulating every teletype and glass terminal that ever existed, or are you talking about the concept of commandline itself?

@Wolf480pl @K0nrad @LoganDice i am talking about its 2018 and i still had to move my cursor one character at a time in a remote html file like an animal

@Wolf480pl @K0nrad @LoganDice you can tell me i should just learn the shortcuts but I have a mouse. i could point where i want the cursor in 3 seconds without having to learn anything. if i was using literally anything else

@zensaiyuki @K0nrad @LoganDice
>3 seconds

that's awfully slow!

btw. what are you using?

@Wolf480pl @K0nrad @LoganDice 3 seconds is only slow if you haven’t noticed that computer interfaces manipulate the fuck out of your perception of time.

@zensaiyuki @K0nrad @LoganDice
w/e, be it 3s or 300ms, what i mean is getting my hand off the keyboard and onto the mouse is slower than pressing Ctrl+← (which is AFAIK an MS or Apple shortcut, not a Unix one)

@Wolf480pl @K0nrad @LoganDice common fallacy. shortcuts aren’t faster in real time. just more emotionally satisfying- and thus speeding the perception of time.

@Wolf480pl @K0nrad @LoganDice outside the subjective perception of time, most of your time is spent thinking and remembering. not switching between mouse and keyboaed

@zensaiyuki @LoganDice @K0nrad @Wolf480pl Then, when you know that the Unix founders made Plan9 (fork of Unix, with a mouse than is nicely integrated), your opinion against Unix falls down.

@lanodan @LoganDice @K0nrad @Wolf480pl i know of plan 9. plan 9 is not unix. if plan 9 is good that does. kt make unix good, it’s an independent variable

@zensaiyuki @lanodan @LoganDice @K0nrad
Plan 9 is what Unix should've been.
Plan 9 is "lessons learned from Unix".
Plan 9 is "what we'd make Unix like if we didn't have to deliver a working product"

@zensaiyuki @lanodan @LoganDice @K0nrad

The problem that prevented Unix from being better is that it was good enough.

@zensaiyuki @Wolf480pl @K0nrad @LoganDice My point wasn’t if Unix was good or bad, is was about their founders and what they wanted with Unix and how they wanted it to modernise.

@zensaiyuki @K0nrad @LoganDice
Maybe better designs are possible. But not implemented yet.

Unix can be understood. It is not a pile of special cases. It has a consistent structure, it has patterns that repeat all over the place. Once you learn one part of Unix, then you don't need to look up how other parts of it work. You just have to ask yourself "how would I do it", and then it turns out what you come up with is pretty much how it works irl.

@zensaiyuki @K0nrad @LoganDice

But yeah, I agree that it gets you emotionally attached to its design, both the good and the bad parts.

@Wolf480pl @K0nrad @LoganDice that’s a bit idealised. the design of unix suggests that level of consistency in principle. in practice command line switches are inconsistent as hell. program behavior (ls being a prime culprit ) straying well off the unix philisophy. and here’s the list of keys that don’t exit vi: ctrl-x, ctrl-c, ctrl-d, crrl-q, esc. typing “exit”, “quit”, “help”, \help, —help, \quit, \exit.

@zensaiyuki @K0nrad @LoganDice
Probably explains why I haven't learned vi yet.

And yeah, what I described was idealized. Still, it feels like Unix is much closer to this ideal that any "easy to use" OS like Windows or Android.

@Wolf480pl @K0nrad @LoganDice i habe a list of criticisms just as long for all of those. everything is shit, and getting stuck in the argument of shit vs shit is stopping us from building alightly better shit.

@zensaiyuki @K0nrad @LoganDice
I'd argue that comparing shit with other shit lets us figure out in what aspects one piece of shit is a bit less shitty than the other, which lets us figure out the direction in which we want to change.

Also, considering that 90% of everything is shit, when you change things randomly it's more likely that you'll make it more shitty than it was before.

@zensaiyuki @K0nrad @LoganDice
ok, so the next step in my reasoning is that Unix is less shitty than Windows, and therefore taking inspiration from Unix is a good way to ensure that you don't end up as shitty as Windows ended up.

@Wolf480pl @K0nrad @LoganDice oh my deus do i hate windows. and i woukd getbon unix before windows any day. but the economic opportunities generated by microsoft for india and the middle east cannot be ignored

@Wolf480pl @K0nrad @LoganDice i would only point put that there are broader sources to draw from than these two piles of shit. what i look at is panic psychology, diving, aviation, automotive dashboards. nuclear power plants.

@zensaiyuki @K0nrad @LoganDice

Yeah, would be good to have broader inspiration, but it's hard for a programmer to learn about those, especially about nuclear power plants.

btw. if you have any links from which I could learn about nuclear powerplant UX, please please send them to me, I'd love to learn more about the topic.

Regarding automotive - I've never driven a car, but it looks like they're getting smartphonized, too. i.e. they're focused on looking trendy, not on usability.

@zensaiyuki @K0nrad @LoganDice

Another important thing is that one of the founding assumptions of unix, is that implementation simplicity is more important than interface simplicity. IOW, the interface design is guided by the internals, not the other way around.
One advantage of it is that the implementation is simpler and less buggy.
Another one is that you can understand how everything works internally, because the interface doesn't try to hide anything from you.

@LoganDice **tries out "man rope" to be sure to not miss the joke here**

@LoganDice Ever read a joke so good you're irrationally angry you didn't think of it?

OS comparisons, sui adjacent 

@LoganDice By reading man pages, I found that I don't use Unix.


% ls
foot.c foot.h foot.o toe.c toe.o
% rm * .o
rm: .o: No such file or directory
% ls

taken from:

@LoganDice "rope actually refers to a gun suitable for foot-shooting. the etymology comes from an original Unix application named `rope' first implemented in 1978"

@LoganDice "foot-shooting is only supported by a GNU extension. BSD-based systems may not support this functionality."

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