Unix will give you enough rope to shoot yourself in the foot. If you didn’t think rope would do that, you should have read the man page.
Gnu/Linux man-pages are often unclear. Openbsd man-pages will have clear examples of first, where to place the foot, and second, how to hold the rope.
That is why it's easier to shoot yourself in the foot in openbsd, and when your foot hurts on Linux, it's easier to Google it.
@LoganDice it's a problem of software and not the system imo
@LoganDice Contrary to popular belief, Unix /is/ user friendly.
It's just quite selective who its friends are.
On a serious note:
This reminds me of the "user friendly" vs "easy to use" distinction that appeared in some thread.
Mainstream socnets and the like may be easy to use, but they're user hostile in that they betray you and manipulate you behind your back.
Unix is user friendly in that it obeys and serves the user, but isn't easy to use for newbies.
I'd argue it's easy to use once you learn it. And it wants you to learn it.
@zensaiyuki @K0nrad @LoganDice
I thought it was a pun on "multics", which was a design-by-committee system that was so overengineered that it never became successful. Ken Thompson et al. foresaw this at the beginning, so they quit the Multics project and made Unix in a way that would be practical.
Why do you think it was designed to create an exclusive "fellowship"?
@Wolf480pl @K0nrad @LoganDice it might have been intended that way or not but that is how unix (and vi/emacs/linux/and so on) in practice: i have literally lost friends pointing out the objectively bad design of vi. you’re right it wanrs you to learn- and become emotionally invested after spending a lot of time and effort on it. it’s stockholme syndrome in a box. better designs are possible without comprimise on the good parts of unix.
Unix can be understood. It is not a pile of special cases. It has a consistent structure, it has patterns that repeat all over the place. Once you learn one part of Unix, then you don't need to look up how other parts of it work. You just have to ask yourself "how would I do it", and then it turns out what you come up with is pretty much how it works irl.
@Wolf480pl @K0nrad @LoganDice that’s a bit idealised. the design of unix suggests that level of consistency in principle. in practice command line switches are inconsistent as hell. program behavior (ls being a prime culprit ) straying well off the unix philisophy. and here’s the list of keys that don’t exit vi: ctrl-x, ctrl-c, ctrl-d, crrl-q, esc. typing “exit”, “quit”, “help”, \help, —help, \quit, \exit.
@zensaiyuki @K0nrad @LoganDice
I'd argue that comparing shit with other shit lets us figure out in what aspects one piece of shit is a bit less shitty than the other, which lets us figure out the direction in which we want to change.
Also, considering that 90% of everything is shit, when you change things randomly it's more likely that you'll make it more shitty than it was before.
Yeah, would be good to have broader inspiration, but it's hard for a programmer to learn about those, especially about nuclear power plants.
btw. if you have any links from which I could learn about nuclear powerplant UX, please please send them to me, I'd love to learn more about the topic.
Regarding automotive - I've never driven a car, but it looks like they're getting smartphonized, too. i.e. they're focused on looking trendy, not on usability.
Another important thing is that one of the founding assumptions of unix, is that implementation simplicity is more important than interface simplicity. IOW, the interface design is guided by the internals, not the other way around.
One advantage of it is that the implementation is simpler and less buggy.
Another one is that you can understand how everything works internally, because the interface doesn't try to hide anything from you.
@LoganDice Can't find a manpage for rope.
@LoganDice **tries out "man rope" to be sure to not miss the joke here**
@LoganDice Ever read a joke so good you're irrationally angry you didn't think of it?
OS comparisons, sui adjacent
Windows: "It looks like you're trying to hang yourself. Would you like some help with that?"
OSX: "Here's some Japanese silk rope and the complete INXS discography. Never mind the price; it's the aesthetic that's important."
Unix: "Here's some hemp, a, gallows construction kit, instructions for making your own rope, and instructions for building your gallows. If you go through with it, can I have your stuff?"
@LoganDice This book is cathartic. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Unix-Haters_Handbook
foot.c foot.h foot.o toe.c toe.o
% rm * .o
rm: .o: No such file or directory
@LoganDice "rope actually refers to a gun suitable for foot-shooting. the etymology comes from an original Unix application named `rope' first implemented in 1978"
@LoganDice "foot-shooting is only supported by a GNU extension. BSD-based systems may not support this functionality."
@LoganDice Or, rather, to shoot yourself in the "root".
rope(1) – Versatile foot shooting utility
@LoganDice So fucking true.
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