@Shamar @noelle dunno, maybe being unable to pass a turing test?
What makes it more of a person than a fly?

@Shamar @noelle
Would that mean that:
- if another species was equally intelligent to humans, but its DNA was very different from that of a human, it wouldn't be a person?
- if a non-biological creature, eg. an electronic one, was as intelligent as humans, it wouldn't be a person?
- if you uploaded your mind to a computer, the copy of your mind wouldn't be a person?

@Shamar @Wolf480pl @noelle
The ugly truth is that a human can indeed become something that is no longer truly a person.
The even uglier is that a fetus can have genetic defects that would just cause them and/or others suffering. If you can detect these defects soon after conception then it is acceptable to choose not to bring such a child into the world.
1/2

@Shamar @Wolf480pl @noelle
There is also a "fun" thought experiment.

Imagine that you are in a hospital. To your left are 10 month old embryos, to your right is a 10 year old kid. The hospital is on fire, the hallway you are in will collapse, you must choose who you save:
10 _potential_ children
or
1 actual living child

what do you choose?

@Shamar @Wolf480pl @noelle

also, whoops, i meant to write "10 1 month old" first, but then i thought the two numbers are harder to read to i shortened it to "month old"

so, they are 1 month old

there are 10 of them

just wanted to clarify that

@Shamar @Wolf480pl @noelle
And is there no number N for which you would choose the fetuses over the child?

@Shamar @Wolf480pl @noelle
And ideally we wouldn't have to throw anyone away, but sometimes you must make a choice in limited time with limited information and limited resources and that choice will affect you and others, possibly drastically so.

And you might refuse to acknowledge that there is an ordering of your potential choices but the ordering will still be there and others might acknowledge it.

Ideally, people wouldn't have to think of this stuff, but the world can be ugly.

@Shamar @Wolf480pl @noelle
-not having the right to safe abortions just increases the number of unsafe and illegal abortions
-women are shamed for even considering an abortion and are told that "god will help" them. and guess what, they often die.
-rape victims should not be forced to carry a child they did not want

also, it is usually better to prioritize the mother's safety because they can, to put it bluntly, always have more kids

@Shamar @Wolf480pl @noelle
So until this magical promised land of yours comes true, what do you suggest those considering abortions do?

@grainloom @Shamar @Wolf480pl @noelle prior to widespread access to abortions and other forms of birth control, the acceptable approach was infanticide.

Abortions are much cheaper and less messy. Let's stick with them.

Meat can have a human genome without being a person. It can even have the potential to become a person without being a person. Consider the root of every hair on your head, for instance.

@Shamar @Wolf480pl @noelle
Have you seen what poor families with lots of kids go through?
And you haven't really answered my question.
Until all those conditions you've listed are met, what are women to do?

@Shamar @grainloom @Wolf480pl @noelle

> having the right to safe income and sustain for the kids, having welcoming communities that actively help ...

World ain't like that. People ain't like that. Not everybody wants to be a parent, y'know. Especially by accident, tragic or otherwise. It doesn't make them bad, it just means they have different needs and priorities.

> God cannot help anyone

Because there is none. Fictional characters don't help people. People help people. And people ain't all goody two shoes, most of us humans are pretty toxic bastards, get over it.

> do yoy prefer the cheaper alternative: let them abort and forget them?

Yes, let them abort if they want to. Nobody said anything about "forgetting them": there's a lot of shit associated with rape that needs helping with. It's a sensible alternative.

If the woman decides to an abortion, let her have it. It is not your place to tell anyone what to do with their bodies and parts of it.

@Shamar @grainloom @Wolf480pl @noelle Also, mind you, abortion is not a fucking sport, it's an emergency measure, ALWAYS, no exception.
It's a traumatic and painful procedure, not even taking the social stigma that exists because of you and people like you.
Women turn to abortion only when all other options have been exhausted already.
When's the last time have you seen a woman getting pregnant and undergoing an abortion every goddamn Saturday just for the hell of it? I thought so.

@Shamar @grainloom @Wolf480pl @noelle A woman also has a right to NOT reproduce. Capisce? And sometimes there is just no option to fully express the right to not reproduce other than abortion.

Now, what you're saying just makes no sense whatsoever. When and how access and right to abortion infringes on a woman's right to reproduce? Do you see anyone vouching for mandatory abortion? Strawman much?

@Shamar @grainloom @Wolf480pl @noelle I believe this views are based on the fact that humans are very expensive to produce. It takes ~20 years and hundreds of thousands of dollars to grow a self-sustaining and contributing individual in western countries. I suppose this could change some day, if we could create or copy human beings at will. This would also make murder less of a crime and more like a minor inconvenience.

@Shamar @grainloom @Wolf480pl @noelle honestly, you're talking about capitalism propaganda if it was even a thing. Or if there was anything else beyond various forms of capitalism.

@Shamar @grainloom @Wolf480pl @noelle does it scale to 7 billion people? I doubt that.

As for your other reply, I consider myself a philosophical zombie. If I suddenly cease to exist and a perfect copy of me is placed instead, would anyone know a difference? Nope!

@Shamar @grainloom @Wolf480pl @noelle but if another person looks like me, acts like me, feels like me, aren't they as much me as I am?

@newt
No, they aren't: you can't make an exact copy of a quantum system without destroying (altering) the original. Approximate copy — yes.
@Shamar

@amiloradovsky @Shamar is there a proof that consciousness is necessarily a quantum system?

@Shamar @newt @Wolf480pl @noelle
> just like you accept
within some extreme cases
no one is saying abortion shouldn't be controlled or there shouldn't be a cap for how old the embryo can be
or that it's good when someone has to choose it
but yeah, you wouldn't sacrifice someone to save someone else, i would. it would have to be a pretty dire situation but i would.
i have nothing else to add

@Shamar @newt @grainloom @Wolf480pl @noelle this is a nonsense. Abortion and other forms of birth control are a technical progression, not capitalist per se. They simply replace the previously-widespread (and pre-capitalist) practice of infanticide with something tidier.

As for the rest, you're imposing a duty to reproduce, not protecting a right to. Reproductive choice is enhanced by technology, but more so by the end of notions like you or I deciding whether someone must bear a child

@Shamar @newt @grainloom @Wolf480pl @noelle and none of them are 100% effective, even when used 100% properly (which is generally difficult). Even abstinence.

By denying abortion, you are imposing a duty to reproduce in the cases where earlier interventions fail.

Human meat with the potential to become a person has no right to life, and reproductive control is not capitalist oppression.

@Shamar @newt @grainloom @Wolf480pl @noelle fortunately, the idea that a fetus has moral equivalence is losing favour everywhere. This makes your nightmare scenarios less likely, as we can focus on the real distinctions between aggregates of human meat with moral standing, and those without.

Although we shouldn't make the mistake of thinking that bigotry needs an internally-consistent worldview to thrive. It does perfectly fine without one.