Did you know: until the early 80s, the religious position was that life began at birth, and specifically with the newborn's first (unaided) breath.

It wasn't until the Right realized that the sexual revolution wasn't just a phase and needed a new way to limit the sexual agency and freedom of people who weren't cis men that the current "life begins at conception" rhetoric settled in.

@Shamar @noelle
Well, life begins, but is it a life of a person?

We don't call it a murder, when you kill a chicken, or a worm. We only call it a murder when you kill another person.

So, is an embryo already a person? or is it just an animal?

@Shamar @noelle dunno, maybe being unable to pass a turing test?
What makes it more of a person than a fly?

@Shamar @noelle
Would that mean that:
- if another species was equally intelligent to humans, but its DNA was very different from that of a human, it wouldn't be a person?
- if a non-biological creature, eg. an electronic one, was as intelligent as humans, it wouldn't be a person?
- if you uploaded your mind to a computer, the copy of your mind wouldn't be a person?

@Shamar @Wolf480pl @noelle
The ugly truth is that a human can indeed become something that is no longer truly a person.
The even uglier is that a fetus can have genetic defects that would just cause them and/or others suffering. If you can detect these defects soon after conception then it is acceptable to choose not to bring such a child into the world.
1/2

@Shamar @Wolf480pl @noelle
And ideally we wouldn't have to throw anyone away, but sometimes you must make a choice in limited time with limited information and limited resources and that choice will affect you and others, possibly drastically so.

And you might refuse to acknowledge that there is an ordering of your potential choices but the ordering will still be there and others might acknowledge it.

Ideally, people wouldn't have to think of this stuff, but the world can be ugly.

@Shamar @Wolf480pl @noelle
-not having the right to safe abortions just increases the number of unsafe and illegal abortions
-women are shamed for even considering an abortion and are told that "god will help" them. and guess what, they often die.
-rape victims should not be forced to carry a child they did not want

also, it is usually better to prioritize the mother's safety because they can, to put it bluntly, always have more kids

@Shamar @Wolf480pl @noelle
So until this magical promised land of yours comes true, what do you suggest those considering abortions do?

@Shamar @Wolf480pl @noelle
Have you seen what poor families with lots of kids go through?
And you haven't really answered my question.
Until all those conditions you've listed are met, what are women to do?

@Shamar @Wolf480pl @noelle
Adoption only works if people can adopt and even that is not properly implemented everywhere.
Anyways, let me recap, correct me if I misunderstood:
what you suggest is that women who are in bad socioeconomic situations and are expecting a child that they (by their own admission) could not care for properly give birth regardless and either send the child off for adoption or raise them AND they should also fight to change society.

@Shamar @Wolf480pl @noelle
I think you are asking a bit too much.

Also, the case where the fetus is known to have serious genetic defects is imho not properly addressed. And Down is one of the better cases within that, at least the child doesn't die within hours after birth.