@MatejLach @Wolf480pl@niu.moe @cbowdon

Also why build a state of the art shit whose shape has beed already defined by instead of building something new and better?
Something following a totally different vision?

@Shamar
I think to pull regular users in, we'd have to start with today's web. But once we have sway in the committees, you can begin to redefine what state of the art web should look like.

@Wolf480pl @cbowdon

@Shamar@mastodon social It won't work. Just take some time to, say, explain recursion or graph algorithms, image compression or even cryptography math to a totally untrained user. We will never get to a point of end users to read or understand their software. IMHO, trying to do so is a waste of time that could better be spent on building more ethical solutions that just work for this crowd.
@MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon

@z428 @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon My position is that they should be *able* to (perhaps with a little training), but not obligated to.

@Shamar No. It's not just the alphabet and language. It's the alphabet and language and a formal approach flexible enough to express *all* the science and knowledge of its age. Actual code is difficult to end users but still the most trivial aspect about writing any piece of usable software.
@alcinnz @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon

@z428 @Shamar @alcinnz @MatejLach @Wolf480pl@niu.moe @cbowdon I think the current approach to computing is not sustainable. It is akin to Egyptian priests keeping a secret of solstices. We need to find a way to make this knowledge go mainstream.

@Shamar We're at a point where some adults have issues understanding higher math, some even have real issues learning to master natural language to understand complex texts or express themselves. And we actually did invent an alphabet to help these folks: Icons. Symbols. Easy interactions. So far this works well. Will we be able to do meaningful programming on that level?
@alcinnz @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon

@z428 @Shamar @alcinnz @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon in simpler systems, the meaning of "meaningful programming" might be a lot different than it is in bloated corporate software. just want to get that noted.

@Shamar I think we very often fall victim to oversimplification because we have totally lost sight of how incredibly much specialized we already are - and how extremely basic and "trivial" some of the issues users are struggling with actually are. Google, Apple, ... are successful because they do better here, no matter why they do that.
@grainloom @alcinnz @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon

@Shamar And now, provide those kids with, say, a batch of hardware and the most simple fully featured implementation of something like e-mail. Do you think they will have a chance to understand what happens, let alone fix it? If that was possible, most programmers apparently are pretty dumb, looking at how much time is spent on fixing ...
@grainloom @alcinnz @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon

@z428 @Shamar @grainloom @alcinnz @Wolf480pl @cbowdon

My take on that is that most of the required info is already out there, but I am all for simplifying it.

I don't think that would lead to some massive influx of programmers, because some people just have different passions like painting, music and such and some just want to watch TV.

There's a pretty large artist community on the Fediverse, don't think they're much interested in the tech side and that's honestly fine.

@Shamar @z428 @grainloom @alcinnz @Wolf480pl @cbowdon

But why? Is playing an instrument as simple as reading and writing? Is sculpting? I agree that it should be as approachable to these that want to get in. I just don't think the interest is as universal as reading and writing is.

@z428 @Shamar @grainloom @alcinnz @Wolf480pl @cbowdon

What is important is that those of us who are technically minded listen to these who create culture and create friendly tools for them to create more of it.

@MatejLach @z428 @Shamar @alcinnz @Wolf480pl @cbowdon idk, you need to know a lot of "engineeringy" stuff to get things done with digital art tools
you need to use logical thinking for setting up complex things in Blender or Krita
we are already forced to learn a large subset of MS Office, why couldn't we learn UNIX(or hopefully Plan 9) instead?

@grainloom @z428 @Shamar @alcinnz @Wolf480pl @cbowdon

Well, am not saying we shouldn't But many people learn a specific tool to achieve a specific tasks. Things like operating systems, programming and such are such open-ended things that unless you're creatively interested in them, there doesn't seem to be as much of a point in doing so.

@MatejLach @z428 @Shamar @alcinnz @Wolf480pl @cbowdon I kinda agree but learning to use shell scripting for getting basic things done (in a good OS with a good shell language) is not much harder than learning Excel. And if all you learn is basic pipes and how to launch things, that can be used for the same things: launching applications, saving and converting files.
You don't need to understand them deeply either.

@grainloom @MatejLach @z428 @Shamar @Wolf480pl @cbowdon Converting between different formats covers a lot of what we programmers do anyways!

@Shamar ... both conceptual and mere implementation bugs in existing code, even for people who know both the alphabet and the concepts.😉
@grainloom @alcinnz @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon

@z428

They do 'better' because they, through inordinate market power accrued through tactics at least as shady as anti-competitive hiring practices, get to define what 'better' means.

@Shamar @grainloom @alcinnz @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon

@deejoe @z428 @Shamar @alcinnz @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon imho there were/are better systems that give users more freedom that were commercial failures because they weren't marketed properly or weren't lucrative enough for developers looking for a quick profit. Linux package managers are better than app stores, but app stores don't require you to share your source.

@deejoe @z428 @Shamar @alcinnz @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon or look at DRM. big money and power hungry megacorps looooove DRM, but it's objectively terrible for everyone else.

@grainloom I'm always back to XMPP and WhatsApp as maybe the most crucial example of everything that possibly could have been done wrong: The "tech" and FLOSS elite fully ignoring or laughing at a new piece of technology that doesn't fit their world view. The XMPP crowd that always focussed on a technology but never cared about building a product actually working for users - 1/4

@grainloom @deejoe @Shamar @alcinnz @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon And someone (the WhatsApp guys) coming along, ignoring both and starting over with what by today is the predominant messenger on all platforms at least in terms of user base - 2/4

@grainloom @deejoe @Shamar @alcinnz @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon Do we care? No. It happened a dozen of times before, it will happen again, and so far we have no way to change that - 3/4

@deejoe No. They *do* better because they made technology available to users in a way "accessible" to these. They do things such as thinking about "target groups" or user personas and actual requirements in term of usability as well. They do that for profit, and of course they use marketing for that, but in the end WhatsApp, Google, Facebook *did* make technology accessible to people who never used a computer before - 1/4

@deejoe @Shamar @grainloom @alcinnz @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon We can try to ignore this or argue it away but the amount of people using these channels and tools (both because they are easy and/or because they aren't able to use any other tools) possibly will not care - 2/4

@deejoe @Shamar @grainloom @alcinnz @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon "Better", to them, is not what marketing sells them. Better, to them, is what works for them - 3/4

@z428

it's a cycle, of course: They can do usability work with the ill-gotten gains from vertical lock-in & other anti-competitive shenanigans.

@Shamar @grainloom @alcinnz @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon

@z428

on the one hand we have people who want to eliminate the 'normal' user by making them all programmers

on the other, those who want to 'fight for the user' on a battlefield of their opponents choosing

@Shamar @grainloom @alcinnz @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon

@Shamar This will fail. People never will have enough knowledge to compete with Google or Apple either. We shouldn't forget it's not just about marketing - they actually *do* have a bunch of very skilled people in their teams, way more skilled than average programmers or even an end user trying to write code.

@deejoe @grainloom @alcinnz @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon

@Shamar

> When most people will be programmers

if you take the expansive view *most* users are already programmers, just too high up the stack to make much difference in the pile of dependencies on which they continually teeter

@z428 @grainloom @alcinnz @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon

@Shamar Pretty interesting however, is that early Google freed a lot of internet users from flaky, incomplete and painful web searches and became the defacto search engine even within the FLOSS community for very long. Why Google? Why not something open or decentralized? 😉
@deejoe @grainloom @alcinnz @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon

@grainloom Amazon Lambda does so, in example - reduce your boilerplate complexity and focus on small functions that contain actual logic. Better? Not sure.
@Shamar @alcinnz @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon

@Shamar @z428 @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon I *think* I know what the right alphabet is, but I don't know how far that takes us...

Those early computer scientists knew their stuff!

@alcinnz I'm not convinced. Just take an arbitrary user and let him, say, try to understand QuickSort, solving Towers Of Hanoi or the TSP.
@Shamar @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon

@z428 @Shamar @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon

As I said I don't know how far that takes us. And it'll probably differ for different people.

@Shamar That's a huge breakthrough you're asking for. The Romans couldn't just come up with zero and place values by creating a new institution. Breakthroughs come when they come.

/cc @alcinnz @z428 @MatejLach @Wolf480pl@niu.moe @cbowdon

@Shamar Absolutely, I can totally relate to that: akkartik.name/about

You weren't the one proposing a CERN for browsers, so my response was unfair.

But there seems to be room here to try multiple approaches. We shouldn't stay stuck with Google's browser while we try to come up with the right alphabet that will get everyone wielding computers.

So let's you and me go chasing the right alphabet, and leave the rest with our good wishes 😀

/cc @alcinnz @z428 @MatejLach @Wolf480pl@niu.moe @cbowdon

@alcinnz

you state a key point that repeatedly gets lost in these types of discussions.

and the same people continue to miss it.

The door to programming should always be open to everyone--no artificial barriers in the way for those who have the interest & aptitude to build & exercise their skill. 1/2

@z428 @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon

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