@strypey Be careful what you ask for: that would kill the peer web before it started. JavaScript on the client isn’t the enemy. Business logic on the server is the enemy.

@aral @strypey I don't begrudge you for using the expedient tools of today, but I must request stand in the way of developments that NEED to happen to ensure all the software we run is libre. So we can do better than the whack-a-mole efforts like your Better (which I really appreciate, btw, thank you!).

Apple and Microsoft already learnt their lesson about auto-executing CD software, but that vulnerability only moved to The Web.

@aral @strypey I agree strongly with you that logic must be clientside.

I disagree that The Web is a good tool for that. It has it's place, but we really need to pushing for libre native apps following open standards.

And browsers should assist with that be pointing people towards the apps they need to use those standards securely. I've implemented that for Odysseus.

@alcinnz @strypey Agree. But we need untrusted relay nodes to guarantee findability and availability to match expectations of the levels possible in centralised systems if we want to build a bridge from here to there. We can shed those training wheels once there are enough nodes. But without them we won’t get adoption.

@aral @strypey I do not see how these untrusted relay nodes (which yes, we do need), but I do not see how that relates to the argument we are having. Why can't we be distributing native apps for each platform?


@xj9 @strypey @aral It's a concern for lightweight browsers that leads me to suggest we think about moving beyond JavaScript. That I encourage native.

Though to be clear Aral's logic for developing web apps is sound.

I come to this from feeling some responsibility to understand the code, WebKit, which forms a major part of my native app, the Odysseus web browser. And because of that I've got a strong understand of just how bloated the "web platform" has become.

@alcinnz @xj9 @strypey @aral I'm not a javascript developer but I have tried to install and maintain a lot of javascript apps. My view is that javascript has an awful development "ecosystem" and it's one of the least stable languages. nodejs apps often have hundreds (or more) dependencies, any of which can make everything fall over. Similar problems apply with python as a web development system. Maintaining nodejs apps within Freedombone is one of the hardest tasks.

For the web interface I've written recently I avoided javascript altogether and my assumed environment is a Tor browser with javascript turned off. In some regards this would have been far easier to write with javascript, but it would also be easier to introduce security problems that way.

@xj9 @mcread @strypey @aral @bob Sidenote: some languages were designed specifically for a given platform.

You must certainly can list JavaScript in that (though wouldn't say it's a very good match), but I'm more inclined to list Swift, Vala, and I think C#. Certainly Visual Basic.

You are right @alcinnz, was never "designed".

It's a 10 days added to in a rush to beat .

And then people wonder why it sucks...

@xj9 @mcread @strypey @aral @bob

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