@jeff If you can't point to any actual people who you know are in this category, is it possible that this category doesn't actually exist?
@jeff I mean if
1) you see an extreme view expressed on social media attributed to 'radical leftists'
2) you don't personally know any actual real leftist who holds that view
3) it might well be that that view is a fake one and is only being expressed by bots or agent provocateurs, deliberately trying to create a certain impression.
We know that military-level operations (based in Russia) are happening right now to do exactly this.
We know that these tactics were used from 2014 on.
<< "Routinely you’ll see the pattern where they post conversational things and then when it’s time to drive in something, they will basically push something really hard, but they’re not always pushing out very explicit messages," Albright said. "The amount of stuff that was put out was staggering. It takes a lot of work to do that." >>
@jeff This is an image specifically linked to a Russian Tumblr account.
Notice how it is deliberately trying to associate Black Lives Matter with the Palestinian Intifada, in order to make BLM appear to be a violent revolutionary organisation.
This is not by accident.
@jeff There is a hardcore element of American Evangelical Christians who have actively been courting post-Communist Russia since the mid-1990s, and especially 2000. They admire Putin for his support of the Russian Orthodox Church, and would like a similar arrangement in the USA.
Rick Joyner, for instance, has a very strong Russian connection and has been talking up Putin's Russia for a long time.
https://www.morningstarministries.org/resources/prophetic-bulletins/2014/ukraine-crisis
@jeff I'm just showing you how the Republican/Russia connection practically works.
It's there. It's very strong.
@jeff The US Democratic party is not currently, in 2018, wired into active Russian military intelligence services in the same way that the US Republican party is.
That's because they have access to the actual US intelligence services.
Trump is more closely connected to Russian intelligence agents than he is to legitimate US intelligence agents.
There is, however, a covert section of the US military which appears to be very strongly wired into Russia.
It's rather an explosive situation.
@jeff Would your source for this information by any chance be Russia Today?
@jeff And yet here you are literally repeating Russian propaganda points.
It's interesting how propaganda works, isn't it? It works even if you don't believe it's propaganda.
@jeff Once again: Your source for this scoop?
@jeff Right, so you're aware then of the very strong links between Wikileaks and Russia?
@jeff What sources would you consider non-credible in this context?
We may have a communication problem if I cite legitimate journalism and you don't believe it's legitimate.
@jeff I don't watch TV news at all.
I do follow William Gibson on Twitter, who has been covering the Russian situation for several years now, and links to a wide array of journalistic sources.
But again, if you don't trust the outlets who are researching and publishing the truth, you will find my statements incredible.
@jeff Why do you consider it 'giving Russia credit' to take notice of and point out inflammatory online propaganda which originates from Russia - and therefore can be safely discarded?
We both would like to reduce online polarization.
To do so, though, requires realising when one's feelings about 'the other side' have been manipulated by intentional deception.
@jeff @natecull agreed: hyperpartisan shit-flinging and big data are huge barriers.
This is further exacerbated by the use of agent provocateurs, targeted using big data and armed with hyperpartisan talking points.
Many interests use those agent provocateurs. Commercial companies, political parties, and yes, nation states.
Russia is one party that's implicated, but right now the corporate media is only focusing on them.
They don't go far enough.
@Hascobe @jeff It's a big ol' hairy mess, yep, and it's hugely enabled by good homegrown US 'surveillance capitalism' and the ad/marketing industry.
Without the bot armies that are tolerated on Facebook and Twitter, and without things like Youtube recommendation algorithms explicitly amplifying radicalising content, this wouldn't be nearly the crisis that it is.
I actually think that both capitalism and government regulation are only partially workable, but both fail in different ways and under different stresses.
A good economy is one that uses both capital and regulation in ways which balance each other, so that when one fails the other can balance it.
I think the USA from 1930s to 1960s achieved great things by being such a 'mixed' economy, neither pure capitalist nor pure socialist.
What a wonderful thread!
I think it could be a case study about #FilterBouble, #democracy, #dialogue, #logic.. I really can't list all relevant issues that your discussion show and touch!
Really wonderful.
On the matter: we all have our bias, we tend to trust different people and we tend naturally to dismiss informations that contraddict our own point of view (more specifically, the pov of our clan).
When people do not agree about news sources, the....
@Shamar @jeff @natecull anonymity is both a danger (in that bots and trolls can use it to pretend to be who they are not) and a boon (in that it divorces views from speakers, allowing them to be judged on merit, and also removes ego, making it easier to change one's mind).
My view is that any discussion under anonymity should allow for robust analysis of any individual's stances. The drawback of agent provocateurs can be mitigated.
@Shamar @jeff @natecull epistemologically speaking, we cannot go to the roots. At some point we must choose axioms, even if they are only our ability to perceive the world, our reason, and our desires.
A productive discussion will identify shared axioms and proceed with those.
That said, your questions are valid, and this point is bordering on pedantic (as most epistemology is).
On Rick Joyner? I quoted his own public newsletters on his own website, so yes, that's pretty much as primary a source as you can find.
Joyner has been very open about his love for Russia for many years. He also openly embraces membership of the Sovereign Order of St John of Jerusalem, a (stridently anticommunist, allegedly fascist) secret society with Russian links.
https://www.morningstarministries.org/about/questions-and-answers/knights-malta-rick-joyner
Now exactly *which* Sovereign Order of St John (there are several) Joyner belongs to I'm not sure, nor precisely what that organisation does.
But Joyner's words and connections would seem to suggest it might be the one described in this article (whose sources I can't vouch for, but which seems to connect with the current Republican/Russian alliance):
http://visupview.blogspot.co.nz/2013/10/a-vast-right-wing-conspiracy-secret_8539.html
If you're uninterested in the facts I'm presenting, then you're probably unlikely to see interest in them, yes.
I'm not sure that that's my problem.
But I was asked to substantiate my claim that there is a connection between Rick Joyner and Russia, and I believe I've done what was asked of me.
Continue your conversation, if you'd like. I've contributed what I could.
<<<<The origins of the modern Sovereign Order of Saint John and its long time Grand Master, "Colonel" Charles Pichel, are quite murky. There seems little doubt, however, that by the 1930s the SOSJ and Pichel had become deeply involved with both the Nazis and powerful figures in the White Russian exile community.>>
I would like to know a lot more about this group, since I used to be a big Joyner fan myself (my parents subscribed to his magazine in the 1990s).
In his magazine (which was VERY influential in the Evangelistic/Pentecostal scene) Joyner was calling for a second Iraq War and then a 'Civil War in the Church' by the mid 1990s.
A lot of people in the NZ church scene got a bit worried by the language he was using around 1996 or so. Really didn't like his 'civil war' talk.
Joyner didn't tone it down. He was calling for an armed insurrection during the Obama years.
Joyner's SOSJ appears to be this one (official website):
http://www.theknightshospitallers.org/history.html
It certainly *claims* Russian descent, whether or not that is actually true.
Joyner is on the Supreme Council:
It may all be a bit of flim-flam and myth-making, but certainly Joyner's myths seem to center on Russia.
