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apparently there's some link between acephobia and TERFs. i don't really understand, but I'm pro-ace and pro-trans so i guess that tracks...?

it's just weird bc aro/ace seems like an orientation that everyone would have the least gripes with since it's basically defined by a *lack* of interest in something? maybe I'm just very naive and there's something I'm not seeing here

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@alexlaw well the people who fight to enforce normality don't usually care what kind of deviancy are you of. with them or against them

@CobaltVelvet i guess so but usually TERFs are (at least according to them) pro-gay, many of them gay themselves, and homosexuality is a pretty pivotal deviation from patriarchal structures of gender and sexuality. then again I'm probably foolish in trying to assume logical consistency of discriminatory people. maybe gayness really has been normalized enough to lump them in with other trad conservatives who pivoted to being anti-trans when they knew they lost the gay marriage debate

@alexlaw ye i think so, conservatives have accepted gay people that give in to their ideas, and more rarely even trans people that believe in enforcing strict binary gender roles and end up with their own niche conservatism

@CobaltVelvet it's actually worrisome to me how quickly among LGBT people a sort of "i got mine, fuck u" mentality can surface.

@CobaltVelvet i don't want to get used to it ;( There should really be measures to prevent it. i think about this a lot with econ as well. like if the US successfully implements free healthcare, free college, taxing the rich, what's to prevent a younger generation from growing up complacent and fall back into boomer deregulatory capitalism?

@alexlaw on :tumblSite:​ acemisia was very much tied to assimilationist LGBT folks, who later as a group turned more towards TERs talking points. LG folks also used the same talking points towards Ace folks as Bi folks ("you just can't decide if you're straight or gay, hun :)"), or just saw them as "straights"...

@katnjiapus hmm, so it's tied to the specific type of LG people who have some desperate need to create a social structure or hierarchy for themselves? and who then have no tolerance for liminal identities. i guess i can see then how transphobia and acephobia are linked.

@alexlaw Precisely. That at least is my read of it, but I assume there's other factors involved here as well

Exclusionist ideology 

@alexlaw @katnjiapus yes its always been very tied to "we have to protect children from these predators" kind of thing. Ace and trans people are vilified as being straight people who want to not only invade queer spaces and take resources from "real" gay people, but also are predators who want to talk to children about sex and gender

Exclusionist ideology 

@laughwhilecrying @katnjiapus yeah ive seen some recent twitter threads where people were connecting the dots with the overlap of TERFs, pedo accusations, general sex-negative anti-kink stuff. idk if there's intentional psyops at that level or if it's just certain people's proclivity to want to control other people, but it does all seem to circle back to trad shit mentalities one way or another

@alexlaw the ties are in the "gated community" mindset where ace/aro people are depicted as "cishet infiltrators to queer spaces", essentially, ways for straight men to sneak in by claiming to be aro or whatever, which are similar arguments often levied against trans people with a couple words switched

@AzureHusky huh i guess i can see how the mentalities are similar. i guess that also explains their apparent ties with other kinds of queer exclusions. I'm guessing they don't see the inherent problem with assuming aro/aces are cishet by default ¯\(°_o)/¯

@alexlaw yeah a lot of exclusion based discourses fall apart when you actually look at the people being discussed ha

@alexlaw a lot of it has been covered by other replies but there's also a subset of radfems who've lowkey continued the "political lesbian" ideology of years gone by, and so they find asexuals threatening for implying that allo lesbians are sexual (these are the same folks who are very upset when wlw are vocal about wanting to fuck, and accuse those wlw of being brainwashed by the patriarchy)

@KittyUnpretty i did once read something from the lesbian discourse of the 70s, wherein a lot of lesbians were already noticing that those political lesbian circles have the tendency to be all white women and increasingly exclusionary of alternative forms of lesbianism, feminism and womanhood. perhaps a warning from the past :thaenkin:

@alexlaw yeah, it became really obvious when reading Odd Girls And Twilight Lovers that there is a specific ideology around patriarchy as the ultimate form of oppression and womanhood as the ultimate oppressed, which claims to celebrate womanhood but which actually can only celebrate it in the context of their own claimed victimhood. bringing race into it introduces an axis of oppression they can't deal with, and lesbianism in that context becomes more about escaping oppressors than being attracted to women.

@KittyUnpretty @alexlaw although note that this can go the other way too—i had to block two TERFs from my gideon the ninth sideblog that identified as ace lesbians

@alexlaw I think a simpler explanation here is "they're both people tumblr dislikes". I've seen friends (including transfems like myself) get called TERFs for all sorts of bizarre reasons

@alexlaw A lot of TERF logic has stemmed from the idea that there has to be something wrong with ace/aro people. It goes hand in hand with their kink-critical mindset. In spite of kink and aro/ace orientations being of the business of consenting or singular people, they've turned it into an anti-agenda to prove that there's something wrong with people who "refuse to be normal".

@alexlaw early anti-ace discourse was just straight up started by TERFs, who were *just* convincing enough that it caught on with young scared LG kids on tumblr

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