@bhtooefr borders are an atrocity in the first place, nobody should own land, settler colonialism is fucking trash.

there's no point in discussing how humanely we do something that's inhumane to begin with. that just further normalises the underlying issue.

@ctrlaltdog I'd argue that, if it weren't for the fact that most Americans don't have any connection to their home countries at all, Native Americans would have the right to deport people like me.

As far as nobody getting to own land... OK, so that means that there needs to be some sort of central government over the entire world to manage this, and really, I don't see that working.

@bhtooefr @ctrlaltdog but a central government WOULD own the land :^)

@a_breakin_glass @ctrlaltdog The problem is, if nobody owns the land (as anarchist communists tend to advocate AFAIK), then whoever wants the land and has enough force to take the land owns the land.

(This is why I say that ancoms are useful idiots for ancaps - the advocacy of anarchism creates an exploit pathway that a sociopath can drive a mining truck through.)

@bhtooefr @ctrlaltdog *shrug* I'm a fan of more occupancy-and-use style attitude tbh

@a_breakin_glass @bhtooefr literally people can learn to share land and respect the privacy and personal space of others. it's something we're taught from a very early age.

and if people are allowed to protect themselves rather than relying on class traitors who are leashed to the ruling class to protect them, then you'd be surprised how little bad behaviour the average person will put up with.

@a_breakin_glass @bhtooefr people just want a place to live, their basic needs met, and whatever luxuries help them pass the time.

power and greed are only prevalent in societies where it's the only obvious way to stop yourself from being trampled by others.

in a society where you've already got everything you need, and have no reason to fear losing it (losing your income for example) then you have no reason to stockpile more than you'll need.

@a_breakin_glass @bhtooefr insisting that someone else will take it if you don't, is not only saying that you deserve it more than others, and projecting onto others that they will behave the same way you do, but also insisting that our natural state is to want to own land

ownership of land doesn't ensure our survival and is certainly not an instinct. it is something learned that can be unlearned.

@a_breakin_glass @bhtooefr "if we all stop owning land, someone will come by and take it all" doesn't work in a system where everyone agrees they shouldn't own land, because the person trying to take everything over will very quickly end up floating face-down in a lake somewhere before they get any power to even start taking things over.

nobody will want to give up agency and swear to serve someone in exchange for more of what they already have.

@ctrlaltdog @bhtooefr
>ownership of land doesn't ensure our survival

this really depends on how you define ownership of land. absentee ownership of land, or more land than you can reasonably personally use? yeah sure. but what about, say, a house

@ctrlaltdog @bhtooefr the "ownership" of land by states isn't legitimate either

@a_breakin_glass @bhtooefr you don't have to OWN land to build on it. you just have to make sure other people don't walk into your house and decide it's theirs.

and who's gonna want to do that if all the land is free, everyone can use it, and they can build their own house or find an existing empty one rather than fighting for ownership of an occupied dwelling?

@a_breakin_glass @bhtooefr so much land and so many resources exist on this planet that i guarantee you we can share them all with everyone else and still have enough to live in luxury

@ctrlaltdog @bhtooefr I'm saying you own land _by_ building on it; the ownership doesn't stem from 'buying' some land, nor does it stem from a state, monarch, or other hierarchy authorising it directly or by arbitrarily declaring some other peoples' land "their" property.

"owning" land = a person, group or community is currently using it, basically

@bhtooefr native americans wouldn't deport you...they're not white colonialist assholes. they wanted to share the land.

it was settlers who decided to take more than they needed, take control, and declare ownership over everything with weapons drawn.

it's the settlers that committed genocide when the natives tried to protect their homes from being taken over.

@ctrlaltdog @bhtooefr Uh, no they didn't. War and conquest existed in the America's for as long as humans have been there. Aztec, Inca, Olmec, Mississipian. Each one of those empires was built on blood, just like every other society in human history.

Deporting citizens is a complete disgrace.

Deporting or turning away asylum seekers is really, really morally questionable (I could see reasons for it in certain situations, but...), and if we caused the situation they're seeking asylum from, we have a responsibility to make things right IMO.

Deporting people who have served our country is really questionable.

Raiding undocumented immigrants' settlements is counterproductive to the safety of our communities.

@bhtooefr Although I am generally for open borders, I don't think your stance is unreasonable in the current political reality. Fully open borders are utopian and maybe not 100% realistic at this point in time.

Still, it's something to work toward IMO. We all have an equal right to the Earth. The fact that I was privileged to have been born in Canada shouldn't mean that other people are stuck with a worse life somewhere else.

@bhtooefr Of course, in that same utopian world, no one should need to leave their home to have a better life. We should all be able to have a good life wherever we are right now, only moving in we want to (or are forced to due to some kind of natural disaster).

Also, if we're causing conditions that encourage immigration, maybe we should stop causing those conditions. (For Mexico and Central America, a good start would be ending the war on drugs. For Middle Eastern asylum seekers, work to disentangle ourselves from the clusterfuck that is what we've done to the region.)

Oh, and a couple more things.

If your problem with immigrants is that they look different from you, fuck entirely off. (A lot of US opposition to immigration boils down to this, of course...)

Cultural conflict is an interesting one, though. Forcing people to abandon their culture is abhorrent.

I do, though, feel that migrants are taking on some responsibility to fit into the local culture? (This could be seen as problematic, but let me explain first.)

Note that in this case, the cultural conflict applies even within internal migration within a nation.

But, cultural compatibility is important.

For starters, if you aren't able to fit in, nobody's going to have a good time. (Note that in multicultural settler nations like the US, there's probably *somewhere* to fit in, though.)

But, also, there's the danger of settler cultures (like white Americans) trampling over other cultures...

@bhtooefr so. played a lot of football in high school, then?

@phooky Nope, none at all, why?

@phooky Oh, I see where you're going... I went to a weird school, let's just say.

@phooky (But yeah, there is the whole problem of people being born into a culture that they don't fit into, which is a whole 'nother issue, and is also a huge problem in the US.)

@bhtooefr
The problems that are happening in Europe are because the countries that are getting the most refugees tend to be less wealthy and the wealthier countries are refusing to help in any way.

@freakazoid The problem is that capital using underpaid and abused undocumented labor (or fraudulently documented, in the case of H1B abuse) depresses the economy for most of the population, even if GDP isn't depressed, and contributes to centralization of wealth.

@bhtooefr I'll have to get back to you on that, but I also wanted to add that much of the pressure on the US's borders are its own doing, primarily the war on drugs.

@bhtooefr The solution to the abuse of immigrants is not to lock immigrants out.

@bhtooefr In fact, the fact that there is even such a thing as an "illegal immigrant" is a major reason they *can* be abused; we've created a class of people with no access to normal legal protections.

@freakazoid It's really complex, but I agree that there should be some way to encourage reporting of abuse and crime without punishing the reporter.

(This is probably a bad idea on some level, but maybe some sort of route to documented residency status for those that do report abuse and crimes, as they're actually helping our society by reporting those things?)

@bhtooefr There are states and municipalities that do precisely this, but the problem is that the community often doesn't realize it, because they're isolated to begin with. It can work with the right sort of public awareness campaign. But that doesn't help with, say, wage theft or underpayment of illegal immigrant labor, since it's not like law enforcement is going to force their employer to pay them or give them a raise.

@saxnot Note that America is huge, and Americans treat US states almost like Europeans treat European nations (except there's far stronger cultural and language barriers within Europe).