If your instance says you will love and respect bigots ironically, I’m probably not going to pick up that irony. Especially not if you’re pals with FSE folks and love swastika jokes.

@brainblasted @catonano Co-option of the term "free speech" scares me when by those who want to be allowed themselves to speak on all platforms but who are are more than willing to threaten people who speak in ways that they believe are oppositional to their own views. So-called FSEs are not consistent, and it's ok and even good for communities to define their own boundaries.

The muddying of the waters is also dangerous because free speech is one of the few defenses against fascism we have.

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@cwebber @brainblasted @catonano

> The muddying of the waters is also dangerous because free speech is one of the few defenses against fascism we have.

i share this feeling. i'm really worried both about both the co-option of rhetoric about free speech by the far right and the growing consensus on the left that the _actual valuing of freedom of expression_ is the natural attitude of nazis/fascists/etc.

long-term, this isn't going anywhere we're going to like.

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@cwebber @brainblasted @catonano

(and because we're in the historical moment we're in, i guess i need to immediately append the disclaimer that i favor strong, active moderation of public social networks and have no interest in supporting / engaging with platforms that aren't willing to do that work.)

@brennen @cwebber @brainblasted @catonano In the US in the past the free speech battle was mainly from the left in terms of anti-communism and also suppression of protest against the draft during the Vietnam war. Communists, union organizers or even anyone suspected of holding vague left wing sympathies was removed from official positions and from the entertainment industry and anything which looked like left wing talk was removed from newspapers and magazines.

So the ability to speak and organize in public is pretty important, but this is not really what the far right are up to. They know that "free speech" is a weakness, especially in the academic environment where people are very tolerant of unconventional ideas. They know that by using this they can create shock and fear and most importantly shut down any oppositional counterspeech. Once people are in a psychological state of fear they will no longer criticize the regime and be too scared to organize in public, and that's the environment in which right wing authoritarianism thrives. The blueprint is that they always use a combination of scapegoating hate speech combined with shocking acts of violence publicized as widely as possible.

@bob @brennen @catonano @cwebber @brainblasted In non US countries it was/is just the opposite. Censorship and limiting speech was used to support Socialism and Communism. So this isn't really a uniquely right or left issue. When ever you use force to shut down ideas or dialog, you are unable to limit it to only the ideas you support. The best way to battle is to have an open dialog. When everyone is allowed to talk and listen, that is how you really shine a light on bad ideas.

@yisraeldov @bob @brennen @cwebber @brainblasted

That might be the reason why some people from former soviet block countries fall for the rethoric of nanny state and minimal government

Because they identify the government with Soviet governments

So they fall for the rethoric by rhe fsb, nonethess

@catonano
I don't know what those initials mean. But either way you cut it, censorship of ideas , by government or by individuals is a tool used by fascists. It is controlling people by force.
@bob @brennen @cwebber @brainblasted

@yisraeldov @bob @brennen @cwebber @brainblasted

The fsb is the current Russian foreign secret service

It inherited its mission from the kgb

They are igniting this "freeze peach" rethoric as a tool to do exactly what you described

Censoring minorities, sometimes violently

Some people from eastern countries fall for that rethoric because they identify Western governments with eastern ones

@yisraeldov @bob @brennen @cwebber @brainblasted

So they fall for the trap of the same oppression that they fear

Tragically

@catonano I didn't RTFA, but I think I made it clear that I don't know where I stand on if big tech companies should be able to censor, It comes down to the question if they are utilities, or publishers.

pol / speech / etc. 

@yisraeldov i think we're generally best off with the ability of the state to suppress ideas in law / by force very constrained, as under the US first amendment.

that said, i'm perfectly happy to shut down certain classes of expression on the platforms i use and support, and have no real interest in dialog with bad actors whose ultimate goals are oppression & violence. i'm not the state, and i'm not obligated to listen to (or rebroadcast) everything.

pol / speech / etc. 

@yisraeldov i do recognize that the division between state and private actors / platforms isn't always as clear as all that (especially in the era of megacorp social media platforms and such), and also that people of good will can feel somewhat differently about this.

this is probably a good place for me to bow out of the thread.

pol / speech / etc. 

@brennen @yisraeldov

Ah is this what "many things become governments" mean ?

pol / speech / etc. 

@catonano
Don't know, never heard that phrase
@brennen

pol / speech / etc. 

@brennen
How does the first amendment allow for oppressing ideas? You maybe right, I just don't know.

You are right, on your own platform, you can be exposed to what ever ideas you want. I often block people or instances. That being said, we aren't going to make society better that way. We just create echo chambers for bad ideas.

pol / speech / etc. 

@yisraeldov

> That being said, we aren't going to make society better that way. We just create echo chambers for bad ideas.

we disagree on this point. i also have some concern about creating highly polarized silos, but banning assholes from one's platform seems to be a baseline requirement of having a platform that anyone can reasonably use.

maybe social media is, as someone recently observed, just not a long-term viable idea.

at any rate: i'm out.

pol / speech / etc. 

@brennen
But that means you are discriminating against people like me. I am an asshole.

pol / speech / etc. 

@yisraeldov in that case, i will block you now and save myself future effort. :)

pol / speech / etc. 

@brennen
Probably a good idea, since you said you were bowing out, but here you are conversing with someone you think should be banned

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