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Thought:

"Design" as practiced today by computer people tends to be heavily based on the idea of negative space: that good design is what's NOT in a system, and by extension, what is NOT ALLOWED TO BE ADDED to the system by a user.

A "design-heavy" system, then, is inevitably highly restrictive about user actions, lest they "ruin the cool design" by adding their own desired features that "make it messy".

But users WANT control over their own space.

Is there a "design" that empowers users?

@pnathan Sadly the CLI concept didn't extend even as far as the X Windowing System.

There may be a reason for that.

@natecull @pnathan What of stuff like Applescript?

(NB: I'm aware it exists. I've not used it myself and don't know its capabilities. A point which might factor into any possible response.)

@dredmorbius @natecull I would say the ergonomics of applescript are such that it's not full of use.

I didn't dink much with it because it didn't relate to the GUI paradigm that I worked in too well and I could already write bash etc by the time I encountered it.

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@pnathan @natecull @dredmorbius hypercard was one of my early inroads to building software, so i used hypertalk some - similar vibes, i think?

hypercard was an amazing thing and i still miss aspects of it, but language-wise hypertalk suffered a lot from mistaken ideas about english-like ergonomics, i think.

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@dredmorbius @natecull @pnathan
re: X, many (most?) of the linux desktop users i know use it to multiplex a bunch of terminals, and people tend to script things within the environment, so i'm not sure it's accurate that the cli didn't carry over.

@brennen @pnathan @dredmorbius

right, but that's not using X *as X* or to interact *with* CLI. It's using X just as a set of terminals for CLI that's completely unaware of X.

X, the system (as I understand it), does not use CLI. It sends and receives messages of its own devising and format but doesn't expose these to the user or use the CLI or pipe system to do it (except for some command options for programs which are mostly now ignored)

Tcl/tk, though, I think does use Unix pipes?

@natecull @dredmorbius @pnathan i mean, X is a windowing environment, so i dunno how using it to contain a bunch of windows isn't using it as that.

and yeah, X is a giant weird beast and i've never actually written code against it in any meaningful way, but i use stuff like xclip, wmctrl, dmenu, rofi, etc., to control facets of it pretty routinely, so it's at least situated in a cli & scripting-driven environment that i use to control my own space.

@pnathan @dredmorbius @natecull to go back to your original point, i think unix is a design that empowers users.

surely not one without substantial design flaws and a gnarly learning curve, but i refuse to accept systems that lack many of its properties, especially the ones that let me add and re-shape features.

@brennen @pnathan @dredmorbius

Well, because X is about *graphical components* of which 'windows' are just one tiny, tiny subset

Like you might want your program to accept input from and send data to buttons? Grids? Charts? Images? Textboxes?

etc

None of that is even really possible with the 'a simulated VT-100 running just inside a window' use case of X.

So CLI is not interfacing with X 'as X', just X 'as a VT-100'.

@dredmorbius @pnathan @brennen all of that though is probably possible with Tcl/tk and maybe with some of the oldschool CLI tools you mention? (which really, really don't get much press at all even among hardcore Linux fans)

like to properly represent the state of X as CLI I think you'd need at least an object model? cos things on the screen ARE objects, they have persistence and state

Maybe all I want is a modern Tcl/tk that works with all the shiny GUI toolkits and OOP systems?

@pnathan @natecull @brennen @dredmorbius Smalltalk doesn't work with all the shiny GUI toolkits. You generally get 90s MVC, some variant of Morphic, or Pharo's newer incomplete thing.

@pnathan @natecull @brennen Really, really, really good suggestion.

I don't know, though it would seem to be close.

@natecull @pnathan @brennen NB: I'm massively hampered in all this discussion principally by /never having really grokked GUI application design in the first place/. My sense of "application" has always been "something that works on a stream of inputs or polls regularly for state", but not "and presents this with a bow and cherry on top".

I could use pointers on some good books on GUI UI/UX. Don Norman seems to be one source. Brett Victor another.

@dredmorbius @natecull @pnathan modulo a handful of toy projects and tiny utilities, every "GUI" i've ever built has lived inside a web browser, so i s'pose i'm in much the same boat.

@brennen @natecull @pnathan I ... have markedly better CSS chops than I care to discuss in polite, or impolite, society. No JS though. Yet.

@pnathan @natecull @brennen Virtually all of that picked up out of necessity trying to salvage my sanity and/or vision from the present state of HTML maldesign.

@dredmorbius @pnathan @brennen

It seems quite hard to think of how to encapsulate the IO flow and state of a GUI component.

ie the input stream could be a stream of events (mouse/keyboard or underlying widgets, data model) and a similar output stream... but it all seems a bit confused and intertwined compared to a simple script that reads a stream of records and writes a stream of updated records.

Could *maybe* separate the IO flow into 'channels' like 'standard output' and 'standard error'

@brennen @pnathan @dredmorbius

and maybe MVC could be pictured at toplevel as:

(stream of view-modification requests + stream of model updates) --> UI component --> (stream of view-updates + stream of model updates)

but it still seems not right. It's a whole nonlinear *data* flow. And that nonlinearity is what makes it hard to modularise. Too many wires snaking out in all directions, all needing precisely matching sockets.

@natecull @dredmorbius @pnathan @brennen don't try to map unix pipe concepts on a UI, the only place that works is Android intents et al

I only skimmed replies, but AppleScript was going in the right direction. I wonder what smalltalk did for representing object passing?

@calvin @natecull @pnathan @brennen If you look at my "Tyranny of the Minimum Viable User" #dreddit piece, you'll see I discuss that specifically.

redd.it/69wk8y

There is also the distinction between "nodal" utilities and "complexity hubs". The latter do stdin/stdout poorly, if at all (though some do in fact do it). Most complexity hubs have *multiple* inputs and outputs.

@natecull @pnathan @brennen Interesting case in point: I've always found awk scripts far more intuitive than Excel spreadsheets. Even for simple stuff.

For sufficiently simple stuff, I write utilities that I'd otherwise use a spreadsheet for. E.g., summing a sequence, or generating univariate moments.

@dredmorbius @natecull @pnathan @brennen see, people are REALLY underestimating excel here

excel is a funcprog environment that

1., normal people use, and normal people use to great effect to get things done

2. actually offers a non-linear way to do programming; instead of a linear program, you operate on cells of a 2D space containing either data or formulae, and operating on ranges is easy

adding VBA was a terrible mistake that added complexity and inelegance

@calvin @dredmorbius @pnathan @brennen right, Excel and its ancestors (Visicalc) are a great example (I think) of what's now being called 'functional reactive programming'.

What if the whole GUI was like an Excel spreadsheet, and widgets were cells? They have a value, the value can be changed, it doesn't care how the value changes but if it does, that change propagates to all observers.

@natecull @dredmorbius @pnathan @brennen Mathematica has elements of this, but it's aiming more towards REPL-document hybrid

@brennen @pnathan @dredmorbius @calvin

the trick is how to remove irrelevant detail ('the user moved the mouse') as soon as possible, and pass on the relevant detail ('African_swallow.airspeed is now 42').

@calvin @natecull @pnathan @brennen I'm not contesting that Excel /isn't/ a functional programming environment.

I'm contesting that it's a /good/ FPE.

It is *VASTLY* too error-prone and difficult to debug. Not to mention awkward. OTOH, *it is often the only tool available since "real" programming tools are denied to front-office workers.*

(Including awk.)

Ray Panko, Univ. Hawaii, has studied Excel errors since the 1990s:
panko.shidler.hawaii.edu/SSR/M

@dredmorbius @natecull @pnathan @brennen I don't think it means the idea is unsound though; on the contrary. There's a lot of ideas to take the spreadsheet and make it a far more useful tool than awk's programming equivalent of a face for radio

@calvin @natecull @pnathan @brennen Awk offers a line-of-code development model.

Excel offers a *grid of code* model. That's hard to see, visualise, debug, QC, validate, etc.

It's *possible* to write Very Robust Excel. It's not *easy* to do so.

I'll also note that I'm talking of my own personal use: I'm not saying that *everyone* who has an Excel-like task should use Excel. I'm saying that when I've got a simple "accumulate a store of values, compute something, kick out report", I prefer awk.

@dredmorbius @calvin @pnathan @brennen

I suspect this is because spreadsheets don't offer *grouping* constructs, which are pretty important for humans to organise information.

A 2D grid gets you a long way, but not really far enough.

If you had a sort of web of nodes which you could expand or shrink, and had a natural mapping TO a 2D grid if you wanted it...

@natecull @pnathan @calvin @dredmorbius a spreadsheet is a shittier-than-average database with what is a better-than-average representation layer for a whole bunch of people to be able to grasp it.

the achilles heel is how bound the physical structure of the data is to the representation & interface, but maybe that's what makes it approachable. there has to be some way for a serious db to be as approachable as excel is, but i don't know what it'd be.

@brennen @natecull @pnathan @calvin And yes, the notion that Excel integrates data storage, data manipulation, and data output, is pretty key.

MS Access took that a slight level higher, though it also had a remarkable propensity to suddenly detonate and destroy entire city blocks, without warning.

@natecull @dredmorbius @pnathan @brennen well, there are "sheets" but it's a bit clumsy

I think perhaps copying ideas from SQL for structure and drilldown would be interesting (another funcprog environment with good ideas, but clumsy tooling; SQL feels like funcprog if it were implemented by programmers who only used COBOL, and half the functions are missing - i'm convinced SQL is also why people swear of RDBMSes to the point of using Mongo et al)

@calvin @natecull @dredmorbius @pnathan put me in the camp of "syntax irregularity and the friction of defining new structures aside, sql is basically pretty good".

those caveats do matter, though. my hunch is that mostly people get lured into garbageware like mongo because sql rdbms systems make manipulating schema a difficult, largely out-of-band sort of task relative to most of their interface.

@brennen @natecull @dredmorbius @pnathan see, I always think talking about "schemaless" is a red herring when it comes to NoSQL - it's really about SQL as a query language & about making the DB just plain ol' serialization of Plain Ol' Objects - this is easy for a programmer, and it's a *schema*, typed language or not

SQL is only lovable if you're a 70s DBA. I'd want a modern RDBMS protocol of sorts, that makes queries and serialization easy - with strict schemas, since the other end has those

@brennen @pnathan @dredmorbius @calvin yeah, a database where defining a schema is an out-of-band operation seems a little like a functional programming language where you can't pass functions to functions.

One of the defining characteristics of data is that it exhibits recursive structure: things inside other things.

RDMBSes in the SQL model, however, are built assuming that there are certain Things (databases, tables) which May Not Ever Be Put Inside Other Things.

@natecull @brennen @pnathan @dredmorbius well, hierarchial DBMSes exist (a lot of NoSQL can be considered as such) but then you lose the advantages of RDBMSes. the problem is that mappings in SQL between tables are clumsy. what if RDBMSes had typed pointers between objects that made it easier to related between objects between tables?

@natecull @brennen @pnathan @calvin Having learnt RDBMS and various mainframe hierarchical data formats more-or-less simultaneously, I've been aware that There Is More Than One Way to Fuck Things Up.

Relational 2D data is convenient. It does /not/ fit all sets of circumstances. Normalising hierarchical data may or may not be possible. And often you're dealing with a cross of "what is present state" and "what is most recently-added transaction" (or "what is the full transaction history"?)

@calvin @pnathan @brennen @natecull There's also the realisation that many mainframe hierarchical formats appear to have been lifted straight off the underlying *paper* forms in use at the time.

At which point you realise that it was easier for the programmers *then* to simply duplicate the paper record in electronic form than to rationalise it.

@calvin @dredmorbius @pnathan @brennen and a sea of objects, or even dumb objectlike key-value data like JSON, doesn't have this restriction!

so it's naturally a lot simpler to work with 'an object full of objects full of objects'

than

'a database, which I gotta get my RDMBS administrator to spec a server and provision for me and define a schema which if I ever then change I gotta file a helpdesk request to do it and butwhooops the user just put a new data type in and crap...'

@natecull @calvin @pnathan @brennen Is JSON really a persistent data /store/?

Or is it a way of shuttling data between systems?

@dredmorbius @natecull @calvin @pnathan anything is a persistent data store if exists in the vicinity of enough half-educated programmers.

ANYWAY, this thread is a lot of fun but now i'm going to go fuck around with a pile of music gear i don't understand, which is probably also a good place to think dark thoughts about the state of interfaces and modularity.

@dredmorbius @calvin @pnathan @brennen

yes and yes.

I keep thinking that JSON is the new '80-column IBM card'.

It's terrible, but it's at least a defined 'plug shape and pinout'

so data stores are gonna assume it as the 'shape' of the data they store, just like 80-column screens and text files stayed the standard well into the disk and VDU era

@natecull @calvin @dredmorbius @pnathan meh. i'm not really pining for more hierarchy in my datastores, though it has its place (hierarchical filesystems are certainly useful). my gripe is more that there's a bunch of friction to making new tables.

@brennen @calvin @natecull @dredmorbius @pnathan postgresql does a surprisingly good job at not being terrible, for a rdbms

@natecull @calvin @pnathan @brennen There are macros, worksheets, regions, etc. Though the groupings are predominantly on that 2D grid.

So it's not /all/ that bad.

And there are any number of CLI / scripting languages that promote Very Bad Habits. PHP is notorious for this. Perl can definitely get you there. I've even heard C occasionally causes problems.

@brennen @natecull @pnathan There's the whole Xt intrinsics toolkit. Go look up O'Reilly's early X11 documentation.

And, for that matter, contrast "X Power Tools" to "Unix Power Tools" The latter was indispensable, and even today remains highly useful despite being first published in 1993 (there have been 3 editions, through 2007). The former was ... dispensable, and seems only to have seen 1 edition.

worldcat.org/title/x-power-too

worldcat.org/title/unix-power-

@brennen @natecull @pnathan As jwz notes having learned working for Netscape / Mozilla: changes in GUI only get you so much, and *cost* you so very, very, very much.

Since you're dealing with what a person can *see* and *manipulate*, both *directly*, there's only so much bandwidth for information or control.

CLI has a vastly larger interface surface, if you will. The options are far vaster.

I have 1,000s of commands available to me from the OSX or Linux bash prompt.

My OpenWRT router: 660.

@pnathan @natecull @brennen How many command options are there from the Chrome or Firefox menus? From MS Office or LibreOffice menus?

@dredmorbius @pnathan @brennen One reason for this is probably that GUI actions tend not to be joinable or linkable; there's no fundamental GUI 'grammar' for anything like the concept of 'two symbols separated by a space' in CLI.

other than 'drag icon1 onto icon2' for a kind of primitive 'apply icon2 as argument to icon1 as function', but it executes immediately, it doesn't give you a third object which is the result of combining the two.

@natecull @pnathan @brennen GUI primitives seem to mostly be mouse and keyboard events.

Ironically: if you /start/ with CLI and toss a GUI wrapper around the elements, you can address some of this. I'd argue that a problem (and, more to come, quite probably advantage) is that one GUI tool cannot /easily/ "become a keyboard or mouse" to provide inputs.

First: think of the malware possibilties.

(X11 already had this problem: grabbing mouse/keyboard inputs.)

This is also usually test/QA stuff.

@brennen @pnathan @natecull That is, tools that /can/ automate GUI bits are generally used for testing and/or QA. I've used a few briefly a long time ago -- can't even remember names. OK, Selenium was one I recall.

The other problem is sorting out /what element you want to talk to / hear from/. You've got a bunch of crap on screen, there's no sense of pipelining or stdin/stdout/stderr.

Named sockets /might/ work.

@dredmorbius @pnathan @natecull yeah, it's funny - we could sure ask for more flexibility and composability in GUIs, but it seems like in a lot of ways the heavily OO-inflected desktops of the late 90s / early 2000s were the high water mark for any mainstream idea that we'd get that.

@brennen @pnathan @natecull And which were those?

I remember hearing that Amiga, and OS/2, and maybe NeXT offered much of this, but I've never really seen any particularly convincing demonstrations.

(OS/2 seemed to have a sense of "workspaces", though they seemed underwhelming to me.)

There's also the problem of preserving user state *within* GUI apps. *Even if I can fire up all the shit that I had open now, on reboot, I'd lose massive amounts of state.* Which fucking sucks.

@natecull @pnathan @brennen (I've been putting off some updates and a restart for this very exact reason.)

(There's also the month+ old problem of a nuked Chrome Browser extension's user state that's been on my to-do list for that month+, though I have to dig into the fucking headspace of Chrome and the extension to see how that happens. The developer of the extension himself *does not know and isn't interested in finding out.* Fucking sigh.)

@brennen @dredmorbius @natecull I never used hypercard. I've heard very very good things about it.

I should probably find an emulator or something and use it for a bit.

@pnathan @natecull @dredmorbius you can run hypercard stacks in-browser from archive.org's collection. i can't really tell how it'd feel to a new user at this late date, but i think it's worth the attempt.

@brennen @pnathan @natecull @dredmorbius Hypercard lives on in a more modern iteration through LiveCode (livecode.com/). Not used it myself, but some former colleagues swore by it.