Web developers: when you say, “this browser does not support our site,” what you REALLY mean is that you don’t support the browser. Don’t turn it around on the browser/user because you chose not to stick to universally-supported standards, or worse, are doing user agent sniffing.

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@cassidyjames This is the same issue with distros though, you can't expect the devs to support every possible configuration out there.

@alatiera @cassidyjames with web you have polyfills that should cover most cases unless you use some fancy API that Google just added to Chrome

@bilelmoussaoui @cassidyjames You can make the same case with glib and gtk and "stable apis" but we know it doesn't hold cause the tiniest change in the system can break things.

Web engines are no different, they don't all of them behave the same way and we know their behavior can drastically very or be bugged and bitrotten.

@alatiera @bilelmoussaoui @cassidyjames absolutely everything you need to make a perfectly fine website has been completely stable and identical in every major browser since 2015. the only stuff that’t fragule and breaks are towering frameworks, package managers and translation layers built for people who think actually learning javascript is for barbarians.

@alatiera @bilelmoussaoui @cassidyjames just need to put some text, in some kind of layout? need a custom font? vector graphics? no problem. wanna build your website in QT and compile it down to web assembly? you get the pile of problems you deserve.

@alatiera @bilelmoussaoui @cassidyjames am i out of touch? is webrtc somehow a normal expectation for websites now?

cos.… i kinda think the kids are wrong…

@zensaiyuki @alatiera @bilelmoussaoui @cassidyjames one thing my wife reports is time to market. She worked with both js and vue and vue has plentiful dev quality of life features that enable delivering a product faster. As well as a writing style more familiar to people with a programming background. tl;dr money

@zensaiyuki @bilelmoussaoui Have fun trying to implement any kind of webrtc system and have it behave identical in all 3 major engines...

@alatiera @cassidyjames right but that's not an excuse for deliberately blocking users from a specific browser. Especially the way chrome does it.

@bilelmoussaoui @cassidyjames I don't see anything different with asking people to use something they have/are testing and have assured to work and us doing the same with desktop apps.

@alatiera @bilelmoussaoui the web’s promise is that it is universally accessible from any device, browser, etc. That’s not at all the case you with apps designed for a specific platform. There are absolutely advantages to either approach, but I think a healthy, open web is essential.

@cassidyjames I explicitly say "this browser does not support our site" when I *do* stick to universally-supported standards, but the browser does not. Say, someone is still on Internet Explorer.

@cassidyjames yeah, no, don't agree with this at all. The actual correct error message is "this browser doesn't support the web standards properly and therefore doesn't work with my standards-compliant code." The implication that it's the dev's fault excuses the atrocities committed by the IE dev team that have finally been corrected in Edge.

@jwkicklighter the problem is, I see this all the time in spec-compliant but lesser-known browsers. 99% of the time changing your user agent magically makes the website work. Far too many sites user agent sniff and use that as a whitelist instead of actually detecting feature support. Worse, they rely on nonstandard or draft specifications and think that's fine because it works for them in Google Chrome.

@cassidyjames I'd like to see the stat for "far too many." That's really what I'm getting at. There are plenty of people writing good code that doesn't work on all browsers, who don't sniff out the user agent. That's actually a well known bad practice at this point as well.

I guess all I'm saying is that you can call people out for the poor habit of sniffing UA strings, but don't lump all "it isn't supported" cases into that category. Many times it really is the browser.

@jwkicklighter fair, but even too often it is the browser even though there is no compelling reason to use bleeding edge web features other than them being new and shiny.

I mostly think modern web development is pretty long broken, though, so maybe don’t listen to me. 🙃

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