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thinking about how there's a nontrivial set of programmers who are gungho about both "if you use after free that's your fault for not programming better you inept clown" AND "no i need the computer to tell me not to call an integer like it's a function", simultaneously

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according to hacker news, the ideal programmer can keep the entirety of a massive complex system in their head all at once and instantly analyze all possible data flow paths, but is a total fucking idiot when it comes to basic local tasks like adding numbers together

once again fondly recalling the guy designing a DSL who insisted on static types because how can you possibly program without them, but refused any kind of static null checking because c++ doesn't have that and it works fine so it must be unnecessary

@eevee still amazed that most people don't consider null a violation of static typing

@unascribed that drives me up the wall but honestly the explanation seems to be that c++ programmers think "static typing" is literally "whatever c++ does", similar to how they define OO

@eevee @unascribed tbf try to use an uninitialized std::unique_ptr and it will casually scream at you about it tho. Also, new and delete do not exist. They do not. No.

@Archivist @unascribed love to use languages where half the basic functionality is considered gravely dangerous

@Archivist @eevee @unascribed ah yes and every programmer must learn all of the many disguised ways of calling constructors, like "list::emplace_back"

@Archivist
sorry I just learned that one this week and any perceived hostility was directed at C++, not you :)

@fraggle Don't worry haha, I don't take things against myself. You have several ways to actually construct stuff in C++ and most courses are outdated or given by people that did Java for their entire life

@eevee @unascribed
It's a scam, don't believe any of it. Real static typing has variant types like Either and Maybe, as well as a support for Monads and typeclasses, with an embedded prolog interpreter to resolve them at compile time.
Ask for genuine Haskell software.

@eevee This is what I enjoy in Crystal: Nil is its own type and everything is a tagged union

@eevee i would ask for a β€œc++: a fractal of bad design” post but that would be giving it the credit of saying it was designed

@r4v5 @eevee c++ has had too much design imo, you get big systems with so much design for the 1% that they’re garbage for the 99%

@eevee without types, not calling an int like a function is not a local task.
It's at least as hard as not dereferencing null - you need to analyze all data flows to figure out where the variable came from, to determine if it could not be a function pointer.

With null, at least you can easily guard against its dereference at runtime. But dynamically checking if something is a function pointer would require heavy linker hackery.

@wolf480pl calling None in python throws an exception. calling NULL in c is a likely security issue

also i'm not aware of any dynamic language that doesn't let you identify a function (though c, being fairly weakly-typed, would let you store a function pointer in an integer and vice versa)

@eevee no I mean in C without types, or in assembly.

You can

void* x;

if (x) {
// hey x is not null
}

but you can't determine if a void* is a function pointer.

Obviously in dynamic languages you have runtime type information so you can introspect anything and everything.

Anyway, I think null sucks, and nothingness should be properly expressed in a type system.

@eevee My soon-to-be-ex manager spent half an hour trying to convince me that needing time to recover from forced context switching was a problem unique to me.

@eevee I take it this isn't a belt and suspenders kinda approach? Like, it is your fault, but you ALSO shouldn't be allowed to do that? Its just....when it is other people it is their fault, but not mine when I do it?

@eevee Honestly I think a huge part of it is just really boring ignorance and insecurity

"this is unfamiliar and scary to me and I would rather just think of it as bad than change my mind"

source: was that ignorant, insecure programmer for a good while

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