re: defining "gimp"
Why is it relevant? Was it created at Berkeley? (I don't know, just curious). So, the name is bad because creators were likely to aware it's bad.
Should have Windows Vista been renamed because it's a funny name in Latvian?
My point is, that on the international scale it's likely that a name will mean something less than appropriate for some group of people somewhere on the Earth.
re: defining "gimp"
Also there is a football player Nasri, which in Russian sounds similar to a phrase "go and shit" which actually means "don't give a fuck". It's unrealistic to expect the guy to actually change his name.
The naming issue a freedom of speech issue. We've got a group of people that created something and decided to name it's the way it's named.
re: defining "gimp"
@pixel @rey @ekaitz_zarraga @hirojin GIMP was intended to have a, well, for lack of a better term, politically incorrect name
after all, it used to be called "the GIMP" for quite a while. you know. after the sex slave character from an internationally famous movie.
and it's not a personal name either. you are drawing false equivalences.
re: defining "gimp"
That's a good point.
I want to focus more how the name is perceived, not on it's origin. In this case, I think, to comparisons are relevant.
Languages are powerful. Ambiguity is one of the basic phenomena. "Pussy" will mean different things in a kindergarten and in a high school.
re: defining "gimp"
@pixel Who are you to define the argument. It is that gimp, as a name, is toxic enough to dissuade people from feeling comfortable using or participating in the project. It is exclusionary. (While that isn't directly oppressive, it does play into social structures of oppression, so I find the argument that it facilitates oppression strong, and the argument that isn't oppressive weak.) @grainloom @rey @ekaitz_zarraga @hirojin
re: defining "gimp"
@pixel I'm not getting personal, I'm telling you: you are misconstruing the argument of those you are disagreeing with. That is a logical fallacy; it's most commonly called "strawmanning;" I forget the latin.
Since we're discussing it personally; I don't use GIMP because people have used that term as a slur toward me and the software name reminds me of it. Beyond that, I don't like letting people who don't respect me make my tools. @grainloom @rey @ekaitz_zarraga @hirojin
re: defining "gimp"
I may be used to a different kind of conversations.
Saying that I'm not listening is also insulting and can feel offended by that and ask you to reword your message.
What is happening here is:
- I don't have an opinion on this
- I want to form one
- As nobody is giving me good arguments like: "i do this for this and it means that because this and that" my position is moving around trying to find them
I still don't have an opinion and still don't have any explanation.
@pettter TBQH, I lost the interest on this bullshit. I've never had it, my original message is from some days ago and the only thing I wanted to do yesterday is to discuss some philosophical stuff with @grainloom (who rejected my invitation LOL).
I don't care.
You *all* can do whatever you like. It's your fucking life and *I'd never call out anyone for doing something I don't like*. Maybe that's why I don't understand.
This is my statement.
> With all the problems that GNU software has, I think the names of the projects are the less important ones atm.
I'm not interfering in anyone's job directly or telling people what to do.
What I said had other implications you are discarding intentionally like the maintainers are idiots and all that. Names are a secondary problem, and many people in the convo agreed with this.
Anyway, that message is not calling out anyone.
You have to come to my fucking profile to read it. Don't have anything else to do?
And my message is from some days ago.
And I never looked for this discussion, mostly because I think my first message was, in part, misunderstood because people was already thinking about it in a different direction.
Why people think it's wrong you require an explanation before you act: https://tenforward.social/@emsenn/102406456160369816
Why people scoff when you dismiss it as a difference of opinion: https://tenforward.social/@emsenn/102409431563886780
Collected thoughts that address some of your questions and points: https://emsenn.net/essays/curated-thoughts-on-fosstodon/
@ekaitz_zarraga You're telling people they're making problems out of nothing and then telling them what their problems ACTUALLY are. You're saying you're just stating your opinions, and when people say those opinions play into harmful stuff, you're ignoring that as impossible because how could they, they're just opinions.
@emsenn If I were as clever as you think I think I am I wouldn't be here losing my time with this comment.
I'm not telling people anything.
Anybody is free to ignore opinions or avoid them. I'm not forcing anyone to listen.
This is too much.
@emsenn Also: I've put the CW to help people ignore me. Which, imo, it's perfectly compatible with what I said.
@ekaitz_zarraga Ahh I got that switched.
I'm confused and maybe you can help:
"What is happening here is:
- I don't have an opinion on this.
- I want to form one."
But then when people say you're not accepting their feedback, you say, "I just give my opinion about a subject."
So were you fishing for feedback or giving an opinion? You've claimed both, seeming to depend on the levity of the reply, and I'm curious if this is a rhetorical technique or slippy logic.
@emsenn I want to form a *good* opinion, and I only have opinons on some of the points.
It's a technique i'd say but I can't really explain it because I didn't rationalize it:
- This is my automatic opinion in specific parts of this subject
- I want a better and deeper one
- Please, challenge it.
@ekaitz_zarraga Okay, the issue is that people ARE challenging it, and you're reacting defensively and as though they're just as wrong as your assumptions.
That's... really rude; to ask for information and then argue against it immediately. It's a common rhetorical device, the argument approach, but wholly inappropriate here.
I have a post about this notion, as well - I encourage reading the comments too; they're real good perspectives I don't have: https://tenforward.social/@emsenn/102407415458998184
@emsenn Why is it rude?
I didn't really ask at the beginning. People came, so I make them challenge my bullshit.
But other's challenges must have some sense too for me to change my mind. One thing is to understand and appreciate them (what I do) and other is that I have to automatically change my mind.
For me it's not rude to make people think about what they said.
Maybe I didn't say enough how much I appreciate the interactions I had?
@ekaitz_zarraga Everyone always loves being thanked for the energy they put into things. By the way: thanks for taking the time to hear out what I'm trying to say! I know it's complex and a lot different than how you're using to thinking about this sorta talking, so isn't trivial.
It's rude because every time you argue your assumption against someone's wisdom, you're saying "My immediate reactions to information are as wise as your opinions," and that's arrogant. 1/n
@ekaitz_zarraga You don't know: maybe the person you're talking to is an expert in their field. Or maybe they just have more experience - or shit, even just DIFFERENT experience.
Replying how you do: quickly, with questions, comes across as dismissive and undermining, not exploratory.
It's a tricky line - and one lots of people are trying to find, on both sides, thus me taking the time to explain stuff out even after the timbre of the thread that came before. 2n
@emsenn maybe I am an expert but I acting like I'm not!
(not the case but... who knows...)
I get the point of the different experience. Some people told me about theirs and it was interesting.
Anyways: I appreciate your opinion on this. It have been useful to understand how does it feel from the other side. I'll try to take more time on the answers and make them more welcoming.
@emsenn Well, the idea is: "if my automatic reaction is enough to confront your wisdom you have to do it better".
But also applies to myself. Not arrogant. We all have this kind of biases and it's fine.
I agree it can be quite discouraging. But we are having a really nice conversations thanks to this.
@ekaitz_zarraga That's a bad idea. Read https://emsenn.net/essays/i-cannot-trust-post-modern-conservatives/
It makes you inherently untrustworthy; you are telling me "I trust my assumptions more than you," that you trust your innate sense of reason more than you are willing to be reasonable in conversation.
(I know - you think you're being reasonable. I'm telling you, you are not. If your opinion says otherwise, it's incongruent with the truth.)
@ekaitz_zarraga What you call a "nice conversation" I view as a "desperate attempt to get someone not to default into being a supremacist and bigot." This isn't "nice" for me, it's tiring and an act of personal self-defense: apologists like you make society more dangerous for people like me.
At this point, I've linked you to about ~5,000 words of opinion on these topics, so will leave you to read them rather than continue this myself.
@ekaitz_zarraga I ran out of characters: I'll still discuss this with you, but I wanted to clarify, this isn't happy or nice for me. It's my attempt to maintain a firewall against the sort of unreasonable assumptions that give violent supremacists a place to thrive. (And yes, I recognize that's not your intent, and probably not what you see yourself doing. That's why I'm attempting at all.)
@emsenn Don't worry mate.
I can understand that people that doesn't know my context see this as a justification of bigotry at some point.
Context is important and here it's lost.
I thank you the effort and the time spent here. I also appreciate the way you changed your approach to the convo since the beginning.
Now I have some interesting feedback about what people thinks about the GIMP think and also about the convo itself.
I don't want you to feel bad about this. 1/2
How to do things with words, by J. L. Austin was part of the bibliography of a class I had in Anthropology that was very philosophical and yet very practical. If you're up to reading, maybe this one will also help you understand why your posture has put so many people relying to you: https://pure.mpg.de/rest/items/item_2271128/component/file_2271430/content
(sorry for hijacking)
@emsenn If this conversation is making you feel bad or it's not a constructive environment I don't want you to keep it.
I always try to make all of this from a constructive context and I suppose that people that interact with me already know this.
I don't really know you from other interactions and that may had some impact on what we thought about each other at the beginning.
I can be rude sometimes. But I'm trying to be a good person everyday, and you helped.
It's all good.
@ekaitz_zarraga I appreciate you saying all that, and almost feel bad clarifying: I dont' feel bad about this conversation, I just wanted to point out that I'm not doing it to be friendly or out of niceness, but a sense of "duty" that it's the right thing to do, because I see you as, without meaning to, supporting the systems that I resist.
Not to say I wouldn't or don't have friendly conversations, but radicalism, not kindness, is what motivated me to reply to you in the first place.
@emsenn Yeah I understood. I got that from your first messages (were a little bit more aggressive than this one ;) )
I think there's a some of failure in the communication from my side and a bit of misunderstanding in the conversation also.
So don't worry. I acted a little bit like an asshole yesterday (but it is what I am, how to stop being it!)
Life is hard and communication is hard.
Let's move on and try next conversations less triggering in this sense and more in a good one.
@ekaitz_zarraga I understand that no one has an OBLIGATION to reply, but saying "You didn't have an obligation to reply, so why did you reply critically?" seems like an odd question to ask of people to whom you've just said, "I am ignorant and want to understand."
I think - regardless of any belief behind it - you have an approach to communicating here that's inconsistent with itself, and that's the what i see people struggling with in this convo, not the beliefs.
@emsenn I can agree with this. Also, I've been having a lot of problems to write this complex stuff in english... :(
@ekaitz_zarraga I don't /think/ this is an English/other-language issue; from my perspective, I think it's just a different approach to conversations. And well, I say this to be helpful, but i think your approach isn't useful to its own goals.
@emsenn It is a language issue since I have to rewrite my messages like 10 times to try to express myself.
But it also can be that my approach is not efficient. But we had some fun, didn't we?
I have to say that the convo went a little bit wilder than I wanted. Other times I make this in conversations I can control better and it has good results. This was just too much for me this time
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