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Really interesting random research today.
GNU Mes
gnu.org/software/mes/

That took me to bootstrappable builds:
bootstrappable.org/

Really interesting.

cc @Shamar

@ekaitz_zarraga

Wow!

That's a very interesting project!
(and a little crazy 🤣)

@ekaitz_zarraga @Shamar

didi you read the announcement today that Guix managed to reduce the binary seed necessary to bootstrap ?

Mes is part of that

@ekaitz_zarraga @AbbieNormal

I have to say that this is the FIRST time since 20 years I'm seriosly considering to leave Debian GNU/Linux for something else.

From a technical perspective, even just the fact that the Guix people are trying this makes it worthy of my respect.

On the other end this is very sad: guix.gnu.org/blog/2019/joint-s

@Shamar @ekaitz_zarraga

to me this joint statement is one of the best things happened in the free software world in a very long time

@AbbieNormal @ekaitz_zarraga

In a way... 😒

I think I'll write something about this hegemony of totalitarian hypocrisy.

Now we all know that #OSS won.

#FreeSoftware is not about #Freedom. #Software is not a form of #expression. #FSF don't give a shit about neither #CivilRights nor #FreedomOfExpression.

And #GNU is full of the same kind of people.

#OpenSource is winning!

Join freesw.org/

Welcome #Newspeak!
Welcome #DoubleThink!
This is the new-GNU world!

🤮

@AbbieNormal @ekaitz_zarraga

Overall, I think #RMS case taught everybody we really need international #ThoughtCrime Laws.

I have the #right to know what I can #think and what not.

I want the right to a due process.

As an alternative I propose the abolition of Courts. We should replace them with a #GAFAM directed crowd of #cowards that lynch people they don't like.

I guess #Google and #Facebook will be very happy to donate the whole infrastructure for #free.

And if it's free... who care about #freedom?

@Shamar @ekaitz_zarraga

Shamar, I think this tirade disqualifies you

It' s a delirious self pity

Due process is for condemniing people to jail

It' s not what happened

Stallmann alienated women from the GNU

What about due process for thse people ?

What aboth the missed support for the free siftware cause ?

You don' t see oppression where there is, and see oppression where there's not

Grow up

@AbbieNormal @Shamar There's a cool question here too. Is RMS a man or is RMS a disabled man acting wrong because nobody made him act like it should?
I don't know.
I don't say he didn't hurt people, but also he has problems we are supposed to solve as a society, not just removing him from his position.

@ekaitz_zarraga @AbbieNormal

I think it's pretty easy.

If he did any crime, he should have been processed in a court.
And with him all people who haven't reported his crime: they were all accomplices.

If he didn't do any crime, what happened is a violation of #RMS #human rights. In particular article 18, 19 and 12.

That's it.

Why everybody is happy about this? Because RMS do not belong to any of the minorities that populate the remorse of #US people.

He is a #hacker.
He is too #weird.
He doesn't worship #profit!

So for the #mainstream he doesn't deserve #human's #rights.

un.org/en/universal-declaratio

@AbbieNormal @ekaitz_zarraga @Shamar Maybe you should grow up and do not act in a naiv way. There always have been people trying to do harm to the free software movement. Apart from an orchestrated witch hunt there isn't anything that could have been dig up against him.
pclosmag.com/html/Issues/20191…

@erlequin @AbbieNormal @ekaitz_zarraga

Nice article.

It's a pity for the last line about millennials. I just think (and hope) that Selam Jie Gano was too young and politically naive to understand what she did. I think (and hope) she has been subtly but effectively manipulated.

I hope that, in the long run, she will understand this and rebel. She looks smart... so there is a little hope despite she being so immersed in US culture.

For the rest, I think Ebersol is quite right. Thanks for sharing!

@Shamar @AbbieNormal You are not in the best place to discuss or have opinions about this I'd say.

we can follow this in an email if you like.

@ekaitz_zarraga @Shamar It's a fascinating subject!

It has some pretty serious implications on reproducible builds. Especially in the compilers land.

It's sadly really tricky to achieve, especially if your compiler is self-hosted.

http://www.joachim-breitner.de/blog/748-Thoughts_on_bootstrapping_GHC

@Ninjatrappeur Oh you are so fucked up Hahah

This post is really interesting too.
It's what happens when you don't embrace minimalism.

@ekaitz_zarraga I'd argue the problem is more about the lack of compiler diversity and compiler monoculture.

Afaik, gcc isn't self-bootstrapable either :/

That said, I guess you're right in the sense complexity makes harder to write new compilers from scratch hence enforces monoculture.

Interesting thought.

@Ninjatrappeur GCC isn't self-bootstrapable neither, yeah.

I think we went further and further in the complexity we lost the understanding of simplicity and reproducibility.

Projects like Mes are interesting because they remember us how much time we spent on adding complexity without worrying about its consequences.

:D

@Ninjatrappeur @ekaitz_zarraga

it is fascinating

this set of concerns motivates some of the continuing interest in Forth, I think

@deejoe @ekaitz_zarraga Yup definitely. Diving a bit more in Forth is in my infinite todolist :)

I realize I forgot to link to this page earlier: https://bootstrapping.miraheze.org/wiki/Main_Page

It's a pretty nice collection of link around that topic?

@Ninjatrappeur @deejoe The other day @vertigo shared a book from the 70s about Forth you may like.
The only thing I know about forth is that bitcoin's script is based on it sooo from that I know it is a stack based language and it's fun.

That's I can add.

@ekaitz_zarraga
The book was Chuck Moore's Programming a Problem-Oriented Language, forth.org/POL.pdf . It explains why Forth is the way it is, and guides the reader how to write their own. It is written in the context of the 70s-era computers, but remains just as applicable today. My project would be dead in the water without this book.
@Ninjatrappeur @deejoe

@Ninjatrappeur @deejoe @ekaitz_zarraga Apologies; I typed it by hand from memory, but am very used to typing https these days. :) Thanks for the correction.

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