John Anderson, Ross Perot, Ralph Nader, Jill Stein, no labels party, etc…
A protest vote or third party vote’s sole purpose is to help republicans win - but this time, it would end democracy
Let Symone Sanders-Townsend walk you through it.
@flexghost When someone says they aren't voting, protest voting or third party I literally want to punch them!!
@flexghost I agree that any 3rd party candidate will help Trump.
But historically, Perot helped Clinton, the challenger and hurt the incumbent Bush 1.
@PizzaDemon @flexghost Wildly different race under wildly different conditions. Long ago, too.
@flexghost Not condemning blatant genocide, and in fact supporting it with military aid, is a very low bar to clear. And yet…
It is right to not compromise on ethics. If american democracy dies because there’s no ethical choice to vote for, then american democracy deserves to die. It doesn’t matter if it means trump wins. That’s just a sign that the citizens themselves are mostly evil. The ends do NOT justify the means. Ever.
@McPatrick @flexghost As far as ethics are concerned? ABSOLUTELY.
The logical flaw I see in this position (any vote not for biden = trump) is that you’re trying to legislate away evil. You can’t out politic evil anymore than you can vote out a tumor. You fight evil by killing it. Literally. THAT is the most ethical choice.
Have you ever formally studied ethics?
Because the various systems don’t come up to tidy, singular answers. They all — at some point — provide answers that are “right” and also feel disgusting and unethical.
No. I’m not trying to legislate away evil.
I’m voting for harm reduction. For the long game, so we have maximum opportunities to make change outside gov’t (& sometimes in it). So vote for the least worst realistic option. Which = Biden.
Purism = Trump and disaster.
@McPatrick @flexghost The world is burning up. There are known people who are actively responsible for our dysfunction. They are law-proof. Bibi is one of them. You’re focused on playing a game whose outcome is irrelevant to them, and in doing so, playing into their hands.
The miscalculation you’re making with harm reduction is the assumption that that there is time to deal with things later. Your attempt at harm reduction is actually harmful. I’ll come back to this in a bit.
/1
@McPatrick @flexghost In this time of societal collapse (and it is collapsing), there will be no source for guidance or truth, by design. The only thing any of us will have is a bedrock ethical goal. Are my actions contributing to the downfall of the billionaires, or am I propping them up?
/2
@McPatrick @flexghost Biden is supporting, of his own free will, one of the people that needs to go, making Netanyahu’s position stronger, and any argument against other dictators weaker. Ukraine will likely fall directly because of this. This may be worse than anything trump ever did, not that he didn’t try. I will not support Biden. THAT is harm reduction.
/3 end
Bibi is political burnt toast. Even in this time of war, 75% of Israelis want him to go.
Biden’s not propping him up. He’s also not able to make him just leave office NOW. Israel is “at war” and they won’t call a snap election.
From all reports, the pause and swaps of hostages/prisoners and access for supplies, humanitarian access, and so on is LARGELY due to Biden twisting arms out of sight.
Working to try for a longer peace. Keeping more people alive.
Unethical?
@ThatMan Jesus, do you just sit there in your basement with your arms crossed until mom brings down the pizza rolls?
First of all you need to look up the definition of the words. Second of all you need to read some history. And third? Write a lengthy apology to anyone forced to know you.
@flexghost I’m a man in 40s. I used to work in the oil and gas industry, making 100k+. I walked away from that for ethical reasons, and I’m poor now. In fact, I’d be homeless if not for some surprise veteran’s benefits that provided me housing.
I’m not young, I’m not speaking from inexperience, and I practice what I preach.
You’re worried that electing biden is the only thing preventing fascism in the US. What prevents fascism is removing fascists. That won’t happen by vote.
A 3rd party candidate has not won the presidency since Abraham Lincoln beat the Wig Party and Democrats....about 160 years ago.
@flexghost This argument boils down to that the best way to get positive change in the world is to not demand change.
Why does the chances for a 3rd party remain low? How do you increase those chances? How do you keep those chances low?
@Jon_Kramer I think you’re missing the point? If you want a third-party that requires a democracy. If you still want to still have a democracy you have to suck it up and vote for the person that’s not going to immediately end it.
It’s that simple. I’m not a big Biden fan but I’m voting for him and registering others as well as taking them to the polls on game day.
@flexghost < I see the point. But I also see the same argument has been used year after year, and 'this is the most important election of your lifetime' is said every cycle.
I think if this was the big one, then the powers that be in both parties would put up their absolute best options.
Obviously they have not done this. I have an incredibly lack of trust in those in leadership roles at this point, and automatically assume they are lying.
@flexghost On a side note, just so you know where I am coming from, this last election in my state, Kentucky, was the first time I can remember voting a straight blue ticket. I doubt I have voted for a republican in the last 30 years, but I never vote a straight party ticket either. I carefully pick who gets my vote...
@Jon_Kramer and that speaks a lot
@flexghost , it does... But I am not as convinced as I once was that there are major differences in policy between red and blue. I can't think of many, that's for sure.
@Jon_Kramer did I just fucking read there’s no difference between Democrat and Republican? I’m sorry this just isn’t a good use of my time but I’ll say this
I know, being a man, it doesn’t affect you Roe was overturned but it’s kind of a big deal. If you’re not trans I guess you don’t have to be the target 100 of laws against you because of your existence
I don’t know, maybe they’ll come after Viagra then we’ll get a bunch of white guys to wake up
@flexghost , wanna know what pisses me off, and has for decades? That Roe was never made into law, so the states could abuse women at will, and the Dems could run on a platform of 'protecting Roe'. They could have solved the issue and moved on, but it made a better talking point to be an issue, forever.
@Jon_Kramer it wasn’t made into law because a bunch of people putting their fingers in their ear saying both parties are the same then not voting
We don’t elect kings
It’s a nation of spoiled brats when it could’ve been a nation of people interested in local state and federal governance to make effective change
The reason this country is where it is? because of its people. Thanks for 2016
@flexghost I think it wasn't made into a law because both the Ds and Rs want the issue to be a defining one to generate votes and conflict, and keep us distracted. Biden had the house, senate, and the Whitehouse after Roe was overturned. He could have, and SHOULD have demanded a bill legalizing abortion. Nationwide. But nope.
You think a white guy can't be pissed about this?
I have a mother. I have a wife. I have a sister. I have a daughter. This directly affects me and mine.
@flexghost Are there differences between Ds and Rs? Sure. No doubt. But in leadership? Not really. They are actors, who high five each other after conflict on the House floor, and she corporate cash with each other, dedicated to keeping each other in power. To quote Nancy Pelosi, "America needs a strong GOP."
@Jon_Kramer are you disagreeing this is not a big election? Trump is using the rhetoric of Nazis. Talking about using the military on citizens. Talking about ending elections. A giant conglomerate came together with a plan to take the teeth out of federal agencies and end democracy. This is not conspiracy theory this is easily available from major news organizations.
@flexghost I am saying that there is always a Nazi, and if it were absolutely true this time, as opposed to all the other times, then the DNC would be scrambling to promote a nazi killer. That they are not is telling me that this is more political theater. I just no longer trust that the GQP and DNC are not working together to spread fear and hate, keeping us from demanding change.
If I am wrong, then the Dems are incapable of being an effective deter ant to a credible threat.
@Jon_Kramer what I’m reading is that there are always Nazis and we shouldn’t try because Democrats have bad PR
America never deserved it’s vast resources or wealth Literally the land of spoiled children
@flexghost What I am saying is that yes, there are always nazis, and that is not a reason to compromise my morals, because they exist.
I don't believe the argument anymore that the only way to protect ourselves is to vote for one of the 2 major parties. I think that is a lie. I think they work together to void our choices, from gerrymandering, to candidate selections that limit our choices. And I think the anti-3rd party argument is phycological warfare on us, by them.
@flexghost Actually, John Anderson isn't responsible for Ronald Reagan and Ralph Nader isn't responsible for George W. Bush. Jill Stein isn't responsible for Donald Trump, either. The Clintons LOVED Perot, btw.