Just to put this into perspective:

The average value of a Bitcoin transaction is currently $119 and requires energy worth roughly $100 (the world average price is $0.14 per kWh).


More perspective?

The global energy consumption in 2017 was 22.3 terawatt hours.

If we moved all financial transactions over to Bitcoin, we'd require over 1000 terawatt hours... each day(!) for Bitcoin transactions alone(!).

That doesn't even factor in that Bitcoin's energy consumption will be exponential to the amount of transactions.

Still believe that Bitcoin is the future of financial transactions?

I'm sorry, but no, that's laughable.

Bitcoin and the blockchain are amazing technologies, but they don't scale for what we are currently using them for.

Yes, there are enough clueless people in the market so that you can still make a quick buck (with a bit of luck anyway), but it's just one big bubble waiting to burst - by design.

Does that mean all crypto currencies suck? No, we're working on better alternatives.


Apparently some more clarification is needed here. I don't even mean to bash on Bitcoin. As I've said in this thread and many times before: it's an amazing and successful technology. By all means, go ahead and use it for whatever you like! It's great.

But please, just don't pretend and keep pushing it as the revolution that will be replacing our entire finance system. It just won't.

@fribbledom I'm not sure why you're saying it doesn't scale.

I'm currently using them for swapping money and it's been working fine so far.

@malin @fribbledom "I use it personally" is a scale of 1, though, so it's basically the opposite of a scalability concern.

@roadriverrail The scale is all the people on the blockchain atm. It's already working at scale, and it could get bigger without technological worry.

@malin I'm aware of how to describe scale (and thus also why "it works for me" is irrelevant in a scale convo). The scale of blockchain use is miniscule compared to the actual financial system, and it will have issues operating at that scale.

Allow me to rephrase:

- It's currently working at a large scale. I have personally verified the scale and the workingness many times.

Perhaps in the future it'll suffer problems, but I'm not sure what problems people are talking about - there's no detail.

@malin It's such common knowledge it has its own Wikipedia page; no need to burn space rehashing it.

@fribbledom I honestly love the tech, it has a long way to go though. We need to focus on figuring out the most efficient way to handle these transactions without compromising the security.

In 20 years this might be in many systems, but it scales worse than this platform!

@fribbledom I don’t think the tech is good or redeemable in its current form. Blockchain is a really bad name for consensus algorithms on top of a merkle *tree*. Proof of Work is about the worst possible consensus algorithm you could possibly imagine, and as implemented is a scary distributed preimage attack on hash algorithms. I’m personally tired of all the “Bitcoin is bad but blockchain is redeemable” narratives. Blockchain is bad and we need to stop throwing good money at it.

@fribbledom while the idea behind bitcoin seems nice, it is still a problem for the environment, like all technologies whose primary goal is to somehow generate money. Bitcoin doesn't really solve any problem that couldn't be solved otherwise and it does it in a way that is so much unsustainable that it borders on suicide to keep using it.

@fribbledom a lot of discussions I’ve seen about bitcoin end up being a lot of noise, with at the core the dangerous belief that “newer, more complex technology is better”. If you want to see a great financial technology, have a look into local alternative currencies, it’s low tech, and usually promote positive change.

@electret @fribbledom Are local alternative currencies generally legal? Does it depend on where you live?

@benk @fribbledom the one I’ve seen were. I’m sure you could find places where they would be illegal, but that’s like many other things 😊

@fribbledom but but blockchain, paired with AI and delivered via 5G is the end-all solution to all tech problems, right?

@fribbledom I agree with you, Bitcoin might of had potential once. The problem is it was designed by optimists and the minute it was easy to buy/sell in bulk it was doomed to an endless cycle of pump and dumps and market manipulation.

To be fair you've described every asset on earth just now, even #realEstate (RE).

Did you know RE is manipulated by spruikers of #housePrices (see #RupertMurdoch #mediaEmpire, largely predicated on it, perverting news and the cost of housing for the younger generation, that's not good right?).

Have you heard of #GameTheory as it relates to Bitcoin?

Another person talked about #credit. In the next breath you may hear them cry about China's #CreditScore.


@dsfgs @fribbledom This is true, however the extent of the pump and dump in bitcoin is an order of magnitude worse. Not to mention it's typically considered illegal to do pump and dumps. Due to cross border issues it makes it much hard to police with bitcoin. I will several authorities are getting better at it but I still say it's unlikely to be an easily solved issue

@dsfgs @fribbledom I also say this as someone who has profited off of bitcoin a little bit. so take everything I say with a grain of salt either way

@fribbledom Ohh, do bash, fine by me. I sold all my 1.000(!) bitcoins when they reached the sky-high prices of 1(!) USD. :-) (no kidding)

@fribbledom The existing systems relies on violence or the threat of violence for security.

The revolution is that it is possible to secure property using entropy and your brain, and that it is possible to reach consensus asynchronously at a global scale without a central authority.

It's hard to even begin calculating the energy cost of the existing system. But energy is also plentiful in the universe.

The article is moral panic and based on research lacking adequate peer review.

@fribbledom I respect the innovation, but the speculative markets have made it a serious detriment to the environment. Another instance where we underestimated the impact of runaway capitalism.

@fribbledom Do bash on Bitcoin! It's dumb and its only remaining function is as a way of transferring wealth from suckers to scammers.

Oh, good. A conversation about Bitcoin that acknowledges basic multiplication and exponential mathematics. How can anyone who does any basic accounting not see the scaling problem?

@Lucretius @fribbledom They saw it; that's how they got it to be more expensive.

The only crypto with any hope of becoming a real currency is monero, its the only crypto that actually has the same features as a regular currency.

@fribbledom there will probably always be a need for a fiat currency backed by hard assets and/or guns. in times of crisis, a govt’s ability to manipulate its own currency is a source of legitimacy.

@fribbledom It will absolutely -never- replace our finance system; see the idiot who lost his password to access, what, $200K in Bitcoin, or what is more $ ?

If all it takes for a person to go bankrupt is losing a password, #Bitcoin has a snowball's chance in hell of taking any meaningful place in the general finance system.

@fribbledom If these are your own opinions -- you are a complete idiot.

I'll leave them up here so people understand you are exactly that.

Christ, and I thought no-coiners were stupid.

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