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"Within C++, there is a much smaller and cleaner language struggling to get out."

-- Bjarne Stroustrup, The Design and Evolution of C++

@musicmatze
@fribbledom maybe it's the "++" part, like a baby xenomorph popping out of the chest of its host.

@musicmatze @fribbledom C might be smaller, but it's far away from being cleaner than C++

@meena @musicmatze @fribbledom never heard anyone describe c++ as “clean”. C++ is an unmitigated disaster.

@musicmatze @fribbledom No, most of the problems of C++ right now are from maintaining legacy stuff inherited from C.

@fribbledom that language is C with namespacing and member functions on types.

And maybe some better libraries that use it.

@jasper @fribbledom Whenever I write C (which isn’t too often these days), I only use the Plan 9 libraries. They’re close enough to posix to be familiar, but fix a ton of problems, and are generally much more consistent and pleasant.

Ken made a bunch of extensions to the Plan 9 C compiler (I *think* including member functions?), but those don’t help when you’re not on Plan 9 (as opposed to the libraries, which you can use on almost any UNIX-like system).

@fribbledom Which is pretty much just C.

You should see the development times with C projects vs C++ projects. C programming takes less time to get things done than C++ programming does on average.

It is not intuitive, but engineers only need 1 or 2 simple ways to make a piece of hardware do things in the first place.

In embedded systems, about 70% of the programming share is still C as of 2018.

barrgroup.com/sites/default/fi

@jmw150 @fribbledom My memory of C++ when it /first/ came out was that it was fabulous for prototyping -- and the STL had some awesome / welcome components (strings, linked list abstractions, etc.) -- but it could not move like C could. That said, it was still largely a C pre-processor at the time. I presume it's improved since then?

@fribbledom

But that said, I like language design. C++ is kind of cool, if you can get devs to behave and only use 1 portion of it at time.

And hardware diverse systems tend to have nearly C compliant compilers instead of standard ones. C++ is something you would find on a fancier system.

So the statistics are not really true. We use C-ish language to avoid straight binary or assembler language. And this is due to C compilers being easy to write. But LLVM and the like may change this.

@MindOfJoe @fribbledom

Yeah. It is really fancy now. The language is huge.

Also C has evolved away from it. So it is no longer a C superset.

@fribbledom

"Any sufficiently complicated ... program contains an ad hoc, informally-specified, bug-ridden, slow implementation of half of Common Lisp."

-- Greenspun's tenth rule of programming

@michal @fribbledom /me wonders whether anyone ever responded 'Only Common Lisp has the ad hoc, informally-specified, bug-ridden, slow implementation of the other half' ?

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