Should /e/OS drop @telegram and @signalapp as preinstalled apps in favor of the universal and E2E-encrypted Instant Messaging application @delta_chat?
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@gael Could Quicksy maybe be a further option? – a spin-off of the popular Jabber/XMPP client Conversations with automatic contact discovery.

@gael should be drop /e/OS entirely for simply being LineageOS for MicroG but with deceptive marketing and a different branding slapped on top?

cc @hellpie

@succfemboi You should really do this if you are not interested in what we are doing which is described at:
You know, this is really simple: we are building something, then people choose to use it or not. That's freedom and I'm super confortable with this.

@gael You're just raising money by selling an already existing project which is already usable as your own brand. It's not building, it's more of leeching

@succfemboi Ah you are THE guy ^^ At some stage I wish you can unlock from your deadly logic.


why not just contribute to LineageOS for MicroG directly?
That pointless fork only fragments development
@gael freedom to decieve people in thinking /e/ has developed it from the ground up?

@succfemboi It's very clear on our website that we're forking LineageOS and probably we will eventually fork AOSP directly as we go bigger.
However, please look at what we are doing. We have a consistent description of the /e/OS online. If you keep thinking it's just LOS+microG, I cannot do more for you.
/e/ is not for most LOS users, we have different goals.

Hi. I would like to second Gael on his points. I'm a Lineage + MicroG user and I think it's great if the project gets more accessible to non technical people. I had to dig into the MicroG framework to set it up correctly. I will be sticking to this setup for now but will keep an eye on e.

@noodleman However they seem to already struggle with regularly syncing their fork with upstream LineageOS, which provides /e/-users a build that is sometimes months out of date. I wonder how that will develop when they fork from AOSP directly.

However I do see that /e/ is different from LOS+MicroG by claiming it to be Google-free (even though it does connect to Google with microG) and bundling it with questionable apps that either use an a selfmade and insecure protocol for encryption like Telegram or requires Google Services to properly function like Signal for example.

@gael @hellpie

@noodleman A supposed security advocate like @gael would have known that for years though

There a still in the building phase so it would not be a surprise if the codebase is not the latest.

From my experience, getting rid of the Firebase Cloud Messaging service has been the hardest so far.


@succfemboi @gael
I still have this handful of application that relies on it (Signal being of of them). Therefor not integrating such solution would mean to create an alternative and hope for the app devs to use it. It still relies on Google, yes, but it seems necessary to me in order to ease the transition.

@noodleman but MicroG already provides support for Google Services. Why switch to an outdated fork that does not develop these features but only bundles them toghether. Doesn't Signal already work for you on LOS?


So far, my apps without MicroG do not receive push notifications.

@noodleman but didn't you say you have microG? You can easily flash MicroG by itself when you already have LOS
@gael so basically not only apps are preinstalled but they also fork various services and slap their own branding on top of it as well while using an outdated base

@noodleman @hellpie

@gael @succfemboi @noodleman

#/e/ is a fork. It looks to me like #Ubuntu forking #Debian to push forward useability for beginners while heavily relying on Debian work underneath.

Whether fork is good or not is debatable (/e/ provides a lot of integration with its services that would not fit in LineageOS) for innovation.

The re-branding of existing projects is more problematic to me.

#Librem does this too 😠

@tuxicoman but Ubuntu is never that out of date as compared to /e/ . Canonical doesn't rebrand apt, deja-dup or their other preinstalled apps while keeping those versions fairly recent on Ubuntu @noodleman @gael

Forking a software is common. It don't see the problem as long as it it mentioned. And it is mentioned.

@noodleman it would make sense if it upstream isn't maintained or becomes user-hostile which isn't the case in most apps listed.

@gael @hellpie

Then time will tell. Licences allow you to fork a project in a friendly or unfriendly manner. That's the beauty of the libre software movement. And bottom line, you are free not to use it. ☺

@noodleman I'm probably more aware of licenses than you. My point is why should one limit themselves to outdated forks with branding on top when upstream is still well maintained and are more experienced than downstream in this case?

@gael @hellpie


I am 1000% for that option.
I alreday use Delta Chat and recommand it to everyone i know. This app is the perfect solution to introduce people softly to privacy, because no centralisation, no need to keep users in a gated community, it is usable with everybody. Delta Chat need as much vusibility as possible.

@gael Delta is a horrible choice since it relies on email. 2 options:
- Use XMPP (with Quicksy).
- Use Matrix (with Riot), Librem 5 phone will have it and the French gov. is already using it.

@gael Definitely, Signal should be dropped. This app is confusing and mixes SMS and chat via their own protocol. Plus, it presents a serious bug preventing SMS from A to be delivered to B when A and B used Signal at some point but A stopped using it and switched back to plain old SMS. My theory being that Signal switches to their own messaging system has soon has it can and never switches back to plain old SMS.

@gael I would argue to use @silence as SMS app. This is a fully functioning plain old SMS app that encrypts messages as soon as both users have Silence installed. Plus, the project could appreciate some love since its main dev is currently busy with studies.

As for instant messaging app, Telegram seems some kind of default standard (unhopefully), Matrix definitely isn't user friendly (yet?) and Delta may be confusing.

My 2 cents.

@gael @telegram This is a very good idea ! Because we don't need another account to use it ! It's simple !

And you can install a matrix or/and xmpp client too ;)

Hi. I think in order to make it different, it would be better to let users choose what they prefer. I would suggest to get a screen on the first run setup wizard with some explanations and recommendations as no such apps are universal nor critically required.

@gael @telegram drop them! Don’t put in a replacement. Do recommendations and have the user choose!


Regarding Telegram, yes, I think it's a short-sighted decision.

/e/ users should definitively have the option to install Telegram, it's a very popular messaging platform and it wouldn't make sense to deprive users that want to use it from this option.

Howerver, if /e/ wants to popularize free software, and I believe it does, the default shouldn't be a service with a closed and centralized infrastructure.

Librem chose Matrix and I think it's better, Delta Chat wouldn't be bad either.

@gael We already have an open, standardised, fully E2EE way of IM, that is XMPP, with many clients (most notably, conversations and quicky). The true and real problem about this applications is their lack of widespread usage when compared to telegram and whatsapp unfortunately.

@strypey @gael Echoing Strypey's take. I personally put higher stock in being able to communicate cross-platform with non /e/ users, with extra points to decentralization where possible. Deltachat is pretty seamless in this regard.

It does lack video/voice chat though, unlike Signal (I wish Jami were more up to this task).

@gael I still have hope for Matrix/Jitsi, and desperately want XMPP/OMEMO to work flawlessly between iOS/Android, but you'd likely have to run your own servers and brand your own versions of Riot/Conversations to make user experience as frictionless as possible.

@gael I revisited Jami and actually think it's worth taking a look at. They're published on F-droid. I had to tinker with some default settings to get notifications to work, but I confirmed chat/voice/video working on my /e/ device. Nothing required for registration except for a username.

The only other alternative I know of that includes all three mediums, is privacy-focused and cross-platform (apart from Signal) is Tox

@gael Jami would obviously need to be tested beyond my anecdotal experience, but it hits all your points: universal, decentralized, and E2E encrypted. It's more distributed and feature-full than Delta Chat.

I tested Antox briefly; the notifications were wonky. Haven't tried Android to iOS yet for either.

Signal's draw was its capacity to consolidate apps and its potential for universality. If that's proven too difficult, may as well try something simpler and unconventional.

@stertorous I don't think it's universal: you can only communicate with people who have installed the app

@gael Ah gotcha, I guess I meant cross-platform. I believe Delta Chat requires a compatible client for E2E encryption to work though, which for most people would also mean installing an app.

@gael @telegram you should provide XMPP server as part of your online services, where email address = Jabber ID.
You may start with Conversation and extend it with video calls based on jitsi.

Regarding telegram and signal, please drop them. They are both forcing you to leave Metadata and/or data to them. It is against your moto "my data is my data"

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