My old GE dishwasher broke (completely dead, tried many ways to reset, was dying for months though...).
Bought a new Bosch 500 (highest not-zillion-dollar model I could get over weekend).
Installed, went to mess with some settings, then saw:
"this setting requires the HomeConnect app"
Oh. Okay, so like Bluetooth or NFC or something?
Nope. They want me to connect my _dishwasher_ to WiFi to configure a number of settings on it! Ugh. No way, no how.
For illustrative purposes, re: Bosch requiring WiFi connection + app to use certain features like rinse or eco mode.
@geerlingguy yup, when I did several appliance purchases recently, "does not have an app" was a non-negotiable criterion. Ruled out Bosch for the dishwasher
@ricci @geerlingguy Two words. Metal Gears.
@geerlingguy Why the hell does a dish washer need a wifi connection to wash dishes?
To make sure they can brick 
it remotely
@bawonschild
To sell your data and charge subscription.
User needs and wishes did not figure in Bosch reaching this decision.
@geerlingguy
There's at least one interesting use case.
In those countries which use Nord Pool power exchange and have floating hourly electricity prices it allows you to run the program when electricity is the cheapest with one press of a button.
In Europe dishwashers are usually connected to cold water only and heat water using electricity.
@geerlingguy
@older @geerlingguy Did not know that. Thanks for the info.
@geerlingguy the base bosch’s have been good, few features really worth it on the nicer ones.
They were briefly discontinued before coming back due to high demand.
I would recommend against a LG. Their main recirc motor is installed in a way that it will eventually fail due to water ingress.
Despite the large warranty sticker and obvious failure method they refuse to replace it under warranty.
@Denton @geerlingguy My partner talked me into a Bosch. I hate it. It's very efficient and quiet, but it's a hanger queen and has too many features.
@geerlingguy Yeah, no!! 
@geerlingguy jeez what bullshit
@geerlingguy that's insane. :(
@geerlingguy Well I guess that's one way to "design" a UI. Can you possibly connect it to a special "dead" WiFi (i.e. not connected and/or strongly firewalled) or do they require some account or some such?
@PHolder So far from my digging, even the Home Assistant integration requires the device to have been connected at least _once_ to the Home Connect service, to get a 'profile' for it
@geerlingguy in an effort to make their device smart they made the dumbest decision. And possibly just massively and quite unnecessarily contributed to e-waste.
@geerlingguy VLAN in unfortunately a necessity also in homes (and my phones are on the shitty VLAN). But personally I would not connect it. It is in anyway more eco than hand washing the dishes.
@geerlingguy is it for LAN only shit or does it connect to servers 
@micr0 a cloud service!
@geerlingguy @micr0 which they can switch off when it suits them.
@mikecox @geerlingguy @micr0 The machine will continue to function. My Bosch runs fine without an active connection, the app just adds some features of very limited value (that can be used offline afterwards).
I does work without cloud service. You can change this in the app, but you would probably need to connect it to their cloud first anyway.
Or you could try this and avoid cloud completely:
https://github.com/hcpy2-0/hcpy
@micr0
@geerlingguy I kind of get that this is how they can add extra features that aren't on the front panel (maybe they save money with a standardized panel across their products?). I even kind of get having this on wifi so you can get an alert while you're out that the dishes are done, or whatever.
But these features seem like pretty standard ones you'd want to on the panel on any model.
@soviut @geerlingguy I dont get it. What are you gonna do about knowing dishes are done when you are out? Might as well just check it when you are home. Dishwashers are one of the stupidest things to add wifi features to.
@geerlingguy they’re probably using MQTT with a centralized broker, which is why you need an app (no PWA), and an internet connection. They haven’t bothered to implement a local API.
This is just lazy programming. Even a low powered ESP32 is powerful enough to have both local webserver for local APIs, and MQTT client for remote connection (source: building an open source habitat control system based on Micropython on ESP32).
@geerlingguy I have one from Siemens - they also use the home connect app - I never cared to set it up. That’s new.
@hiiaminfi @geerlingguy Siemens Household == Bosch
@geerlingguy I hate how everything nowadays needs to be connected to the freaking wifi. No, I don't want my toaster to send me a notification when my toasts are done! No I don't want my oven to send me "handpicked" recipes based on what it thought I cooked before (obviously I'm exaggerating here, but I'm sure, somewhere, it's a thing or at least it is in development). Oh and don't forget that these online features are as secured as an open air library box.
@Thibug @geerlingguy A previous rant over a similar issue resulted in the phrase "meat thermometer attack surface". We should never be worrying about the security and privacy implications of connecting a dishwasher to the internet because there is no legitimate reason to connect a dishwasher to the internet.
We live in the stupidest timeline.
@geerlingguy The most horrible thing imo is that the eco mode is locked, that's my favorite mode!
@legoraft @geerlingguy I wonder if that puts it out of energystar compliance in the US, because that mode usually exists to get a good energy usage rating.
It probably would affect its efficiency rating in the EU, if you can't run that cycle with the device alone.
@geerlingguy bekko has something similar, but they only require Bluetooth and only if the usual programs are not enough. You get the classics at the turn of a button, and can download custom programs.
But requiring wifi to use the washing machine...or an app....is insane.
(nano is best) @geerlingguy i’m half expecting that dishwasher to appear in home assistant and i wouldn’t even be surprised anymore
@geerlingguy connect to an app to *delay* 
“Sorry Jeff, your laundry hasn’t started because our servers were down at that time.”
@geerlingguy you wait till it gets AI to determine how to clean your dishes
@geerlingguy@mastodon.social that was one of the reasons to skip Bosch / Siemens the last time I had to get a new dishwasher.
I always check first for app connected appliances and ignore them. Like my stove needs to be connected to a cloud service? What could possibly go wrong!
And to get push notifications when the dishes are clean, just attach a wireless socket connected to home assistant and send a push when watts were high and went low for an extended time (below standby wattage).
@geerlingguy If that were me that thing would be going back to the store as fast as possible
) 
@geerlingguy I was just considering a new Bosch dishwasher for a kitchen refurbishment at my Mum's house. She's 88. There's no way she / I would use an app for basic functionality because it's adding friction / another data sucking security nightmare.
@john234 @geerlingguy Regular use doesn'r require wifi. I have a Neff (same build just like Siemens) and this is only useful for pre programming etc. Things that cannot easily be done without a display. Don't get scared by this. They have a very good line of dishwashers. Please check their web site for details.
@geerlingguy how long until "that'll be £4.99 a month subscription to use eco mode"
@technicalotter @geerlingguy Bingo! Ah yes, that’ll be why… 
@geerlingguy This is really getting out of hand.
@geerlingguy *endless internal screaming*
WHY?
@geerlingguy "HTTPS Everywhere!" was just a DRM Trojan horse all along. 
Sounds like a job for tcpdump/wireshark to suss out what it's trying to connect to, so you can block those IP addresses in your firewall.
But really, no one should have to do that ...
@geerlingguy@mastodon.social people should be legally entitled to a free product return if they open the device and discover this is a requirement (in some nations, like Australia, this type of return is allowed by law anyway)
@geerlingguy I have a Bosch washing machine that also has Home Connect but haven't bothered configuring it since every mode has it's own button, I guess it only adds remote start. They probably went ahead and locked features behind it so more people use it and they can harvest more of that sweet sweet data (and possible backdoors).
@geerlingguy wow! they saved 4 LEDs and all they had to do was install a WiFi module, program an app, and keep an online infrastructure running all the time.
What a savings!
Setting up a VLAN just for "smart" devices will soon be a necessity – for those who have the know how. Those that don't....
@geerlingguy as said on the other side, would be interesting if this is holding against the European regulations regarding the eco mode.
@geerlingguy I question why they should be allowed to get this data. It’s not needed to operate the device. Why are they collecting data on people? Nothing good comes of that historically.
@geerlingguy I wouldn’t mind Matter over Thread smart appliances. Ditch the mobile app, let it just work locally with Home Assistant or whatever platform I choose. No need for wifi.
@geerlingguy I'm pretty happy with my #Bosch #SilencePlus 46 dbA. Bought it mainly because I wanted the most silent DW I could get. No #internetofshit features. Apart from doing the dishes, the smartest thing it can do is a time-delayed start.
The only con I noticed so far is that it is quite thirsty for rinse agent.
@geerlingguy when do we get to see the teardown and replacement with a Pi + ESPHome or similar? 