Heads up

@k9mail is looking for funding to maintain their popular mail app. hopes to raise €1,000 p/w on to be able to work fulltime on the project.

@dsfgs @humanetech @k9mail Yes, it does.
You can change the message format for every account individually to plaintext or use the automatic setting which uses plaintext if a message only consists of text and uses HTML if inline images or other elements are added when composing an Email.

Thanks Totoroot,

That's nice to see. It must be a new(ish) feature? Because when we tried it not too long ago it wasn't implemented or was not reliable and so we had to uninstall.

@humanetech @k9mail

@dsfgs @humanetech @k9mail It does but if that's a concern for you, there are PGP plugins for it.

@humanetech @k9mail I've been using K-9 Mail for over three years now and have been donating via #Liberapay for almost as long. I really hope you succeed in working on this full-time and will continue to support this wonderful project! 👏
Already looking forward to future improvements!

@koherecoWatchdog @totoroot

I was on the CC of a similar long discussion you had about this the other day, which boiled down to "ethical purity" and whether "perfect was the enemy of good" or not.

Curious.. what in your opinion is a *really good idea* then that you would advise to projects like @k9mail ?

Perfect doesn't exist. Cash delivery is about as close to perfect as you get from a privacy PoV & it still has issues.

#Liberapay is nowhere near "imperfect". LP puts every possible privacy abuser in the loop + it's *exclusive*. So it's firmly on the trash heap.

Reasonable methods that are good enough to fall just short of "perfect":

* publish an IBAN
* publish a cryptocurrency address
* open a US bank acct to receive paper checks/ACH.

@totoroot @k9mail

Speaking as a Tor user myself, Cloudflare isn't the worst enemy of the Tor network. The issue's that it's used for datamining and Cloudflare has put measures to protect the copyright of websites owners.

Does it harm a population? Yeah, sure. That's why Google's reCAPTCHA is so slow – it's on purpose. That's also why Cloudflare has replaced it with its own.

Btw, Liberapay is FLOSS.

@totoroot @k9mail @humanetech

This is non-seqitur logic.

#CloudFlare *is* by far the *top* adversary of the Tor community. There's no copyright issue to speak of & the urge to attack datamining is an excuse.. a motive; not in the slightest cause to consider CF non-adversarial to the Tor community.

CF's #CAPTCHA is not in-house. It's outsourced to #hCAPTCHA, which discriminates againt the impaired.

@k9mail @totoroot @humanetech

"Btw, Liberapay is FLOSS."

This is an example of the equivocation fallacy. We aren't talking about the #Liberapay software; we're talking about the *service*, which imposes non-free software on donors. The hCAPTCHA is unsolvable unless you download & execute non-free javascript.

If you find another service that runs the LP s/w, that's a different conversation. K-9 would do better to self-host that indeed.

@k9mail @totoroot @humanetech


Don't you think your energy would be better spent improving existing solutions or building viable alternatives rather than advocating for tiny open source projects doing unrealistic things?

@af @k9mail @totoroot @humanetech

@cketti @humanetech @totoroot @k9mail @af Not when the problem is that there already are better options that are simply being neglected. Adding more better options makes little difference when the better options are being ignored.

@humanetech @totoroot @k9mail @af btw, why do you frame #datamining as a problem to begin with? I wrote a program to harvest listings of homes for sale, filter out the bad options & show the most suitable home to buy. The data mining actually found me the house I bought. I do the same thing to find the flights I want. Someone found her husband by data mining dating sites. Data mining is a *legitimate* activity.

@koherecoWatchdog @cketti @af Could you please be so kind not to mention me anymore if you plan on continuing this discussion. I'm not interested in getting notifications all the time. Thanks!


I think that "Cloudflare prevent datamining to protect the copyrights of websites owners" is pretty clear, for example with academic publishers. For me it's not that datamining would be a problem in itself (you're giving examples where it's not, but on the Fediverse for example datamining user data definitely is), but that Cloudflare's answer seems acceptable according to their own business model.

If they wanted to ban Tor users from the internet, they'd block Tor exit nodes from reading websites (eg. 503s). That's what KnowYourMeme is doing for example.


@af @humanetech where are you quoting from? A car can be used for drive-by shootings. It can also be used to commute to work. The fact that it can be used as a weapon is lousy rationale to ban outright because it oppresses legit users. Of course #CloudFlare's business model will be consistent with their ethics (& lack thereof). It's not the profiting that makes what they do inherently evil.

@humanetech @af "If they wanted to ban Tor users from the internet.." <= CloudFlare's motivation is *profit*. A 403 is not optimal for profit. Forcing users to solve an #hCAPTCHA generates profit because hCAPTCHA pays CF via #Paypal for every CAPTCHA that users solve. This forces CloudFlare victims into a situation where they help their own oppressor profit.

@af @humanetech If you want to protect your copywrighted work, then don't put it on the open web. Blocking Tor users is a broken approach because nothing about Tor violates copyright. Your copyrighted works can be downloaded without Tor. It sounds like you want to abuse the purpose of copyright, and use it as a tool of oppression - to rationalize the marginalization of the Tor community.

@humanetech @af You seem commited to the old idea that corporate greed is inherently acceptible b/c corporations are not bound by ethics beyond the value of profit- that their sole duty is to profit for shareholders. I highly recommend updating that perception by listening to #KateRaworth: your-undivided-attention.simpl

@af @humanetech It also seems you're unaware of the full scale of #CloudFlare's impact on #netneutrality, privacy, human rights, innovation, software freedom, democracy, environment, & crime fighting, which is outlined here:


Cloudflare doesn't block Tor users by default, abusers just use the Tor network so exit nodes get marked as abuse instead of abusers' own offices. It may be datamining, fake (paid) reviews, spam, intrusion (Lavabit blocks Tor users from authentifying), and so on. If you contributed to Wikipedia you'd know that they're blocking Tor users from editing, even when they're logged in. No sysadmin woke up with the bizarre idea of blocking looged in Tor users from editing or brought up this idea in a meeting to justify wages, and one might assume that blocking visitors using Tor wasn't enough (might have been that or blocking small email servers). There's a whole industry built on abusing Tor, that's my first point and honestly you're giving it too much importance.

**Secondly, you're talking about better pre-existing alternatives but you don't mention any.** I'm sure that @k9mail 's main dev would spend 15 minutes looking to your alternatives' official websites and Wikipedia entries if you mentioned them with a message like "Hey, just so you know that Liberapay uses Cloudflare (link to disroot git) and PayPal, while so-and-so don't, with the additional benefits over such a centralized model that (...). I don't want to tell you how to get income for FLOSS or to degrade any source of income for you, but I'd love to make you a recurring donation there instead (and maybe see you promote it?). I definitely want to chip in and to help to make JMAP mainstream, especially among indie email providers. Wishing well for the project!".

But here you just look like if you wanted to prevent Liberapay users from giving to K-9.

Yes, "Liberapay is FLOSS" is a valid point. It's not a commercial service, I'm not aware of taking any margin; it's a public service and they probably accept contributions improving what they deliver.


@af @humanetech @k9mail "CF doesn't block Tor users by default" <= nonsense. The default setting does block Tor, & naive admins who don't even know that don't know that they must change the default config in order to stop blocking Tor users. "abusers just use the Tor network so exit nodes get marked as abuse" <= nonsense, all exit nodes are blocked by default.

@k9mail @humanetech @af Wikipedia is a red herring. Wikipedia is not proxied through CloudFlare. "There's a whole industry built on abusing Tor," <= that whole industry is bent on abusing the Internet, with Tor and without Tor. There's also a whole community of legitimate users, both on and off Tor.

@af @humanetech @k9mail "Secondly, you're talking about better pre-existing alternatives" <= I did. I mentioned cash, IBAN, btc, ach, and checks, none of which rely on #CloudFlare. 'Yes, "Liberapay is FLOSS" is a valid point.' <= it's a false statement if by "Liberapay" you are referring to the *service*, which imposes non-free javascript on users.

@k9mail @humanetech @af The Liberapay software can be self-hosted in a way that does not impose execution of non-free s/w on users, so long as CloudFlare is not used with default CF settings-- but these are not the conditions that k-9's donations are under. K-9 has jailed their donation portal in the privacy abusing walled garden of CloudFlare, on

@af @humanetech @k9mail It's also a bit perverse to call #Liberapay a "public service", as it sits within a walled garden of restricted access.

Well that was an exciting 4 minutes, during which I had a librapay account and then promptly closed it. Not happy they imported an 'avatar' from wordpress without asking me and not trivial to remove it. Anyway, I made a donation.

@humanetech @k9mail while I support people asking for sorely needed donations to meet necessary needs... especially for projects that are critical to many people...I hope this isn't intended as holding the project hostage until a goal is met.

We really do need K9Mail to be modernized to be usable in later versions. That's work, I do understand. I also urge the current sole dev to solicit other coders to chip in to help as well if the goal isn't met. FOSS is hard but I hope we can achieve it.

@humanetech I am using and recommending K9 mail as well and decided to make a small but regular payment on Liberapay! @k9mail

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