@witchescauldron @dimitrisk

#Fediverse is where different things can be interconnected to create something bigger than the sum of its individual parts.

We have most of the capabilities of the #ActivityPub open standards still largely unexplored. Potential not yet tapped into fully. We touched the tip of the iceberg and created federated Microblogging fabric.

Now let's extend that to the full range of human activity and in ways where online world truly enriches the real world.

We just weave.

@witchescauldron @dimitrisk

See also: https://fediverse.town/t/socialfabric-to-distinguish-fro-web3-and-blockchain/325

And: https://lemmy.ml/post/119720

@humanetech

Atm, I see some time and space still available within the fight against #web3 to let people know that another #decentralization does exist.

As soon as our defeat is declared, we are going to need a new word. I like the elements you suggest (human, relations, creation).

To avoid yet another defeat, we may use a word that the free market and profit oriented world would be hesitant to adopt. A word consisting of a #commons element seems quite resistant to me.

@witchescauldron

@dimitrisk @witchescauldron

Yes there were other hashtags brainstormed and already used like Hamish's #OpenWeb and also #CommonWeb #PlainWeb, #SmallWeb by @aral and @laura

I like the idea of moving away from "Web". It just doesn't fit anymore. It is too universal and everything is crammed under its broad categorization.

Our bloated browsers have become OS'es in their own right with the webapps they expose. Web is like internet. Too broad and hence non-descriptive.

@humanetech @dimitrisk @witchescauldron @aral @laura Don't fight against it. It will only draw more attention.

Pick out those parts you do like and start promoting those. Even sell it as a first step if need be.

The first step towards #web3 is more apps that work on user data. Like #solid or #ipfs in hype terms or just small tech.

Focus on taking back control and use the hype to steer us towards that future.

@madnificent @humanetech @witchescauldron @aral @laura

I get your point and I kind of agree with you.

What I mean is that we should participate in the public discourse against the #blockchain based narrative of #web3 while being careful not to end up giving up #decentralization.

E.g. https://www.stephendiehl.com/blog/web3-bullshit.html

They make up many valid points against the web3 hype, but having taken economies of scale and #bigtech as granted, I feel they end up to inadvertently (?) defend centralization.

@dimitrisk @madnificent @humanetech @aral @laura

The #encryptions are on their path, yes fight back when they try to take over our #openweb space #deathcult is good for this #techshit and compost the crap as all simple good ansears.

By engaging in #mainstreaming you do feed it, so need a balance on this one, question of keeping focus.

@witchescauldron
If it helps, our favourite phrasing in this context is, "#ReclaimTheOpenWeb".

It's disturbing to see 2% of the cryptoCommunity that like the #scamTokens try to hijack #Internet3p0.

We've been talking about it in terms of #selfHosting over genuinely decentralised and privacy-respecting protocols (eg. #I2P, to a lesser extent Tor)

@dimitrisk @madnificent @humanetech @aral @laura

@humanetech @dimitrisk @aral @laura

Web has a STRONG history which is good, the term was coined as a commons this is good. Open and closed both have a long history that is more relevant than ever.

The is much embed in these words to abandon them without adding to the pointless churn.

@humanetech @dimitrisk @aral @laura

The is a counter alt #mainstreaming that you likely don't like in their use. Remember the STRONG change/challenge that every #hashtag needs to not be churning waste of our space and time. Fluff is easy to sell-out, we need balance here not #blocking

@humanetech

you maybe need to look at the culture to the thousands of videos appearing here https://visionon.tv to see the ones lively culture this thinking is coming from, it has a STRONG history that shaped the #mainstreaming you live in now.

Its #blocking arrogance not to try and look at this when pushing agenda agenst this history as you have been doing the last few years.

@humanetech

Note, everything you find valuable was created by this movement, that very little exists any more. Rebooting this "commons" is what the tech is actual for in the #OMN maybe that helps you to understand the push?

Please take the time to look and understand.

Thanks xxx

@witchescauldron

Yeah but I think this is what @bhaugen is referring to. You berate anyone that doesn't get your message, as having somehow a hidden agenda and 'mainstreaming' and all that.

If instead of complaining and convicting people so easily you might work with others, encourage them, inspire. I think you mean well, and you and I are after the same kinds of improvements to our world and society. But this blaming everyone for not being on your level is not very helpful, imho.

@humanetech am berating you here not the other two, that why I sent a post only to you.

I am one of the world experts on fluffy/spike direct action having made over a thound films on this over the last 20 years, in my family am 3ed generation of grassroots activism https://www.fourcornersbooks.co.uk/books/women-for-peace-banners-from-greenham-common/

So yes, am calling you out for #blocking thus damage. You are blind and dogmatic in fluffy pushing. This on balance is damage.

That is a direct reply, please look at the history http://visionon.tv

@witchescauldron well, you make absolutely no convincing arguments. I'll leave it at that, than you. Maybe we can agree to disagree on our approach to furthering the commons.

@humanetech

am telling you that your actions are on balance dangurus and #blocking and that's your ansear.

TRY HARDER, and I don't mean that in a bad way, as you can help build bridges if you build on non-capitalist foundations.

You can see what that use to look like here https://visionon.tv/videos/local

@witchescauldron maybe you should try harder to convey your message instead of talking in riddles.

I am volunteering like crazy to help many people with all kinds of initiatives that help people in general and humanity as a whole. And the I get the occasional small token of appreciation for that. Which is not what I am after, but nice to hear anyway.

Maybe you might question your approach for a bit as well. Be self-reflective if maybe you are in a purity spiral that hurts rather than helps.

@witchescauldron if you would like to have a vidcall to me instead of us mudslinging here, then I am available for that somewhere next week :)

@humanetech we have done this before a few times, the is no opening for a meaningful conversation. Message me when you feel ready for building bridges, am happy to build bridges as we do need them.

@dimitrisk @humanetech #commons is good, this is the nature metaphors I use a lot nature is a commons.

@witchescauldron @humanetech My main concern over the #commons word -in the digital sphere- comes from #wikipedia and #creativecommons embracing #nft.

It will be a huge blow against #commons to see both organizations promoting NFTs.

@dimitrisk @humanetech

yep, the whole #encryptionist project is about creating an artificial (capitalism) scarcity in the digital plenty (commons).

#nft and #CC are simptions so good to work with the root #mainstreaming capitalism and its "common sense" fellow travellers who push this without "thinking".

@humanetech I was hoping that "Social Cloud" could be a thing, I like #SocialFabric as well.

Been saying for a while that there's too much technobabble in this space, and what we need now is more clarity.

@humanetech @dimitrisk

#stupidindividualism is good, it has a negative, connects to history, neo-liberalism is based on extremist ideas of atomised society. And it leaves space for a positive - what is plain "individuals" with out the stupid, in this we do not through away the 20th century when we clearly label the 21st century.

@humanetech @dimitrisk

#geekproblem is the same as if people have any possibility of change/growth they can simply ask what is geek and what is problem and from this questioning step away from the mess they make.

@humanetech @dimitrisk

#4opens is a very good tool for judgeing value, in this it's exactly what we need to change/challenge the current #techshit

And techshit is good as it's discriptive and matches with the composting metaphor, the out come is rich soil to plant seeds of #4opens #openweb tech.

@humanetech @dimitrisk

#fedivere is a bad metaphor, but it's what we have.

#openweb is a much better hashtag when joined to the #4opens you have a strong existing bridge (the word has a 20 year history)

The 4opens with "open industrial standers" is the glue to Activertypub and RSS etc

@humanetech @dimitrisk

Ok off to saw wood, more latter.

@witchescauldron @dimitrisk

Well, I traced the first two of these hashtags back to 2018 and the only one using them is you, and other people that don't understand what you mean and ask a question about them.

I don't feel they are very effective. And besides being hard to understand I also find them not that inspirational, tbh.

@witchescauldron
That's the only one of your negative-pejorative hashtags that makes sense to me. Altho even that one seems like it is coming from a sense of personal superiority, which is, as @humanetech said, not inspirational.

@dimitrisk

@bhaugen @witchescauldron @dimitrisk

There is something to them. I see #Fediverse as having an Achilles Heel.

Many people think we've arrived and things will only become better from here.

But I feel that a combination of:

- Complacency
- Anarchy
- Individualism
- Division
- Self-interest

Leads likely to a Tragedy of the Commons scenario.

But it doesn't serve to advertise these negative sentiments too much, but instead address them, seeking possible solutions.

https://fediverse.town/t/the-fediverse-saga-how-shall-we-conquer-our-challenges/137

@bhaugen @witchescauldron @dimitrisk

Not addressing means we are creating the Spaghettiverse or the Fragmentiverse where interoperability becomes harder and harder and we are sitting ducks to becoming irrelevant.

@humanetech
I am all for promoting and working on #interoperability .

@witchescauldron @dimitrisk

@bhaugen @dimitrisk

These are all the good things on the #fedivers

- Complacency
(safety)

- Anarchy
(is its roots, don't cut the roots if you won’t the plant to live!!!!)

- Individualism (let's make this less #stupidindividualism then its fine )

- Division (yep seeing a lot of that, this one is the killer)

- Self-interest (careerism is the hart of mastodon and mastodon is the by far the bigist bulk so this needs more diversity not criticism, let's build the #OMN)

@humanetech
I agree that Fedi is scary, has problems, and is home to a lot of hate and harassment.

But out of the factors you listed, division isn't necessarily a bad thing. It counteracts some of the other problems. Carve out a cozy selection of good peeps as sort of a li'l nook of your own.

That's not to say that it wholly outweighs the bad parts.

@Sandra yes, that it is true to an extent. At SocialHub we have this slogan #UnitedInDiversity and people expressing different opinions and arguing on them is furtile and healthy. And needed.

But when it comes to activities that support / promote the evolution of the #Fediverse there's also extremists that are in a purity spiral, and they viciously attack anyone that committed 'cardinal sin' in their eyes. Dividing the 'good' movement from within, so it doesn't even gain strength to fight evil.

@humanetech But ultimately, what is the purpose of letting Fedi and other social media have a place in our lives? Social means company, and if someone does something awful, it's not gonna feel great hanging out with them.

The overlap between my IRL friends and people I have on Fedi is non-zero (I have a few) but really tiny; most people I have on here I met on line. So it's mostly a more interactive, more personal, more real, more connected alternative to reading newspapers or books. (But also more chaotic, less thougth-through, less directed, less intentional than books.)

Since Gutenberg and Balzac and Melville humans have wanted to pass the hours with a pot of tea and a human connection via the written word.

Now, Fedi so far hasn't delivered on that nearly as well as, say, email (which I adore) but to me, that's why I log on here. To satsify that human curiosity and need for connection (also why vlogs and reality shows got popular, or blockbuster pop media that people can have shared water cooler experiences about).

With that in mind, I'm pretty happy to be trigger happy on the mute, block, and instance block buttons. The more personal and curated Fedi is, the better it'll become.

Fediverse by its decentralized nature is never going to be a good "platform" or soapbox. Sure, some of that stuff can go on here (probably most of my own posts, admittedly), but that's not what the design suits best. Instead, it's for company.

@Sandra yes, you expressed this very well.

I agree and also think there's much we can do to improve further so that all are able to find their specific niche where they feel comfortable. On one hand be with your cozy group, meeting new people, be surprised by great content, discuss and inspire. But also create, do stuff together.

On Fediverse Town another aspect was mentioned that appeals to me greatly: finding local connection through our tech, by @nicksellen

See: https://fediverse.town/t/considerations-for-local-geographic-instance/327

@Sandra @humanetech glad I am not the only one who finds almost zero overlap between IRL friends and Fediverse connections. I don't like having to do so, but if I want to stay in touch, end up having to use Zoom, Facebook and WhatsApp, and Dropbox, Google Drive etc etc as these are the tools they are using. 😞

@humanetech @john For me it's all on email or Jitsi

@witchescauldron
P.S. the #4opens inspires me.

@humanetech @dimitrisk

@bhaugen @humanetech @dimitrisk

Yep, it's good basic stuff and we likely need little more to take a good stride that needs to happen. Would be good to get feedback/editing on the text https://unite.openworlds.info/Open-Media-Network/4opens/wiki/Home

@witchescauldron
By the way, I somewhat get your distinction between fluffy and spiky. One diff might be I think spiky is effective if it spikes a culprit, less effective if it's just thrown out in the air aimed at nobody and lands in a mudpuddle.

We got a few people in fedi who are very effective at pointing criticism at culprits who deserve it, naming names, and taking receipts. I won't name them all now because I would miss somebody who deserves credit.

@humanetech @dimitrisk

@bhaugen @humanetech @dimitrisk

yep, i think that stress was in the original use of the idea stemming from the anti road's movement https://visionon.tv/w/7nLpTmdTzMLEkutiD7pTRS some pagan "magic" from that time to inspire.

@bhaugen @humanetech @dimitrisk

Good to remember that spiky/fluff is NOT a value judgment. The useful problem it points at is the time and focus that is taken up by the two fighting each other rather than their common enemy.

@bhaugen @humanetech @dimitrisk

The fluffy spiky debate is a call for "respect for diversity of tactics" and lays down some "rules" built from expirence to mediate this every draining problem.

It's a call for anti-dogmatic thinking and action when people don't think this is needed - that last stament is likely important to think about #mainstreaming

@bhaugen @humanetech @dimitrisk

The is a chicken and egg on that one :)

All the hashtags are designed to make #stupidindividualism uncomfortable.

You are right, why would these people use something that makes them uncomfortable :)

Remember change/challenge, push harder as a social group. If you want to understand this tradition of "push harder" then http://visionon.tv is a place to find that path.

I made hundreds of those videos, am one of the world experts on the subject :)