#Popper explains the #tolerance paradox, or why you should not tolerate intolerance.
@Aarkon Unfortunately, just because Popper said it doesn't mean that it's right, and it's a textbook case of a slippery slope argument. The specific counterargument rests on the question of the necessity of the consequences. MUST tolerating the intolerant lead to wiping out tolerance? No, it's quite possible for tolerance to win regardless; otherwise events such as the civil rights developments in the USA could not have happened.
So what is the safety in the system? Civil liberties.
@jankoekepan @Aarkon
a different argument: I am in favour of tolerance. I respect many different views, because my touchstone isn't the truth or falsehood of such views, but the central truth that there is room for multiple truths. Bob, a nazi, believes there is only one truth; we are fundamentally at odds. Moreover, he wants to destroy anyone that thinks like me. I say: fuck Bob. I see no contradiction here.
That works, but as a footnote I would add that the central element isn't tolerance as such, so much as prudence and self defence. In other words, by shifting the burden of the decision to a different ethical dimension, the general principle of tolerance can remain unchallenged.
@jankoekepan @shadowfirebird @Aarkon
Well yes. Put another way: I've removed the paradox.
The central Q is how you define "tolerance". Is it "I don't agree but I must let you say that" or is it "I assume that that is as true in your experience as this conflicting idea is in my experience"?
I know which I think is more robust, more ethical paradigm: the second, which, yes, dictates moving toleration to a meta level.
But, obviously, that's just what I think!
The first case is granting all persons equal civil liberties vis-a-vis speech, action and so on. The second case just seems like an assumption that someone else is a rational being with different experiences, and contains no inherent mandates.
So the first actually strikes me as more ethically robust in that it contains, and constrains, the mandates but also delineates where self-defence (i.e. where the counterparty doesn't reciprocate) starts.
@jankoekepan @shadowfirebird @Aarkon
And yet a while ago you were saying it was a slippery slope? That seems like a contradiction to me, but if you are holding those two as canon at the same time, okay.
Popper's argument is the slippery slope argument, and thus conditionally valid at best (hinges on the inevitability of the slip). I reject that argument.
The following discussion had more robust structures, that I did not reject.
@Aarkon @shadowfirebird @jankoekepan
Popper's argument was more nuanced then that cartoon. He was firmly for arguing against intolerant ideas as the first line and to avoid suppressing free speech. However, if the intolerance is expressed as violence, then it needs to be curbed.
@dulcet @Aarkon @shadowfirebird
I'll admit that sounds more like Popper, in which case my gripe is with the cartoon.
@jankoekepan @dulcet @Aarkon @shadowfirebird I think this is one of the most interesting questions of our times. I read about quite successful covert operations of Polish political police in 1930s against international communists seeking to impose Stalinist dominance. The very fact of having political police is scary, but the experience shows that civil liberties will not defend themselves. But that can be used so easy to suppress dissent of any kind.
@saper @dulcet @Aarkon @shadowfirebird
In my experience you don't need political police for the job, as long as you have transparency in courts and enforcement.
Theft is a material loss and I think this is meant to be in the abstract realm. A better analogy would be tolerating someone being wrong on the Internet versus tolerating them encouraging theft.
@dulcet @rysiek @shadowfirebird @Aarkon @saper @jankoekepan
TIL this discussion is limited to informational realm.
@dulcet @rysiek @shadowfirebird @Aarkon @saper @jankoekepan
Anyway, I didn't mean to draw an analogy.
I wanted to show extreme examples about which most of people will agree.
And tolerance as a concept clearly has a bigger scope than just speech.
Maybe the "material loss" you're talking about would be a good criterium whether we should tolerate something or not?
That was what Popper's original paradox applied to, speech.
@dulcet @jankoekepan @saper @Aarkon @shadowfirebird @rysiek
Well I don't see how nazis' shouting would lead to extinction of tolerance.
I can imagine nazis' bullets leading to extinction of tolerance. But shouting?
@Wolf480pl @dulcet @jankoekepan @saper @shadowfirebird @rysiek It encourages intolerance.
@Wolf480pl @dulcet @jankoekepan @Aarkon @shadowfirebird @rysiek yes, if you shout "beat em up". Or, as recently in Germany's online media, "Lösch dich" ("Delete yourself"). When interviewed for specifics the authors could not more specifically say what kind of "deletion" do they mean.
@saper @dulcet @jankoekepan @Aarkon @shadowfirebird @rysiek
But wouldn't the tolerant people know that beating people up is bad, and not listen to the shouts?
Therefore, only ones who would act on that shout would be those that already were intolerant.
And the beating up itself would not be tolerated by the tolerant.
@saper @dulcet @jankoekepan @Aarkon @shadowfirebird @rysiek
Yeah, I know :(
@jankoekepan @dulcet @Aarkon @shadowfirebird who would carry out the investigations before bringing a coherent case to the court?
@saper @dulcet @Aarkon @shadowfirebird
That's an open question. One of the things that I like about the british system is the potential for private prosecutions, as opposed to crown prosecutions.
@jankoekepan @dulcet @Aarkon @shadowfirebird That's naive. I don't believe any private investigator could go against Stalin's boys in 1930s.
@saper @dulcet @Aarkon @shadowfirebird
That's why I made reference to the nature of the system earlier.
@jankoekepan @dulcet @Aarkon @shadowfirebird I think I didn't get it, sorry.
@saper @dulcet @Aarkon @shadowfirebird
Whatever system of justice and/or equity you have needs to be transparent and accessible and open to review. Stalin's secret courts and show trials met none of those criteria.
@jankoekepan @dulcet @Aarkon @shadowfirebird The point is how a country that is about to be imploded from inside for example by a "workers movement" implanted by the enemy should protect itself.
@saper @dulcet @Aarkon @shadowfirebird
You need a body dedicated, essentially, to defending civil liberties, so that the would-be provocateurs can't cry oppression, but neither can they oppress others without concentrated opposition.
@jankoekepan @saper @dulcet @Aarkon @shadowfirebird
@rysiek
regarding tolerance:
I think the problem is that people treat tolerance as a boolean (either you're tolerant or not), and as an absolutely positive thing. OTOH, tolerance is more like a vector.
One can be tolerant of some things, and intolerant of others. Moreover, there are some things we shouldn't be tolerant of.
Should we tolerate people being wrong on the internet? Probably yes.
Should we tolerate theft? Probably not.