Here is an interesting thought to post to a mastodon instance. From Dmytri Kleiner via P2P Foundation:

"Going back to an early Internet architecture of cooperative, decentralized servers, as projects such as Diaspora, GNU Social, and others are attempting to do, will not work. This is precisely the sort of architecture that anti-disintermediation was designed to defeat. Decentralized systems need to be designed to be counter-anti-disintermediationist."

wiki.p2pfoundation.net/Counter

@wu_lee he is right, but not for the reasons he provides. The problem is that platforms like Diaspora, GNU Social, Mastodon etc... all rely on ISPs to exist. Kleiner's idea of "[platforms] run[ning] on the computers of the platform’s users" won't solve a thing: ISPs can still lock people the fuck out of the internet as they please. Cooperatively owned ISPs are the only long-term solution to the anti-disintermediation problem.

@Antanicus: do you mean "ISP" as in a "internet connection provider" (like AOL, BT, Virgin Media) rather than "hosting service" (like whatever runs social.coop)?

So agreed, as but both can be counter-d15n'ed, wouldn't full anti-counter-d15n of the *gateways* (as I think you mean) require a mesh network, because the telco infrastructure is private and c-d15n'able?

@wu_lee
> do you mean "ISP" as in a "internet connection provider" (like AOL, BT, Virgin Media) rather than "hosting service" (like whatever runs social.coop)?
-Yes, ISP stands for "internet service provider". Some of those also offer hosting services too, but that's not relevant.

- the telco infrastructure is private and c-d15n'able? That's why we need to overtake it and cooperatively own it. Local telcos need be the main target for this

@Antanicus @wu_lee alas there was even a point in Britain (late 19th/early 20th century where many telcos *were* locally owned (albeit by the Council) if not private companies; but because they *wouldn't* federate the Govt nationalised them into the Post Office and (as political views changed) later privatised as British Telecom, with the exception of Hull in Northern England. This remained in Council ownership until quite recently when the *citizens* of Hull *voted* to let it be privatised.

@vfrmedia

@Antanicus @wu_lee

Secure Scuttlebutt is aiming to be run on user hardware only. And to be connection/communication method agnostic.

So is a possible mechanism to counter this.

@alanz

Another somewhat as proposed here youtu.be/SWl2HBNyK48

"goTenna" is a smart-phone based mesh network. The speaker asks at the "Blockchain Summit" how to create an incentive for users to run nodes.

@Antanicus @vfrmedia

I was wondering if #holochain could be a potential means to incent users to run mesh network nodes (it already has a model for running hosting space). You get credit for hosting.
holochain.org/

@vfrmedia @Antanicus @alanz

@wu_lee @alanz @vfrmedia there is no need for gimmicky incentive schemes under cooperative ownership: all members share the financial burden and those who do the actual work get paid for it out of the cooperative common fund.

@Antanicus @wu_lee @alanz

indeed. I am cynical about anything mentioning "blockchain", same with "devops" or all other buzzwords common in tech.

existing co-op ownership model *works* and has worked since 1880s and even survives in ruthlessly competitive environments such as retail.

I often get cycling jackets and winter gear online from a workers co-op in Scotland/North of England (folk there more likely to ride in winter so they sell better items than competitors in the South!)

@vfrmedia Agreed, and Cynicism++

Nevertheless, here we are on social media :) Also, see comments about limitations of coops here mastodon.social/@kavbojka/9930

Holochain may be a gimmick, but it is not a blockchain, as the authors are cynics of that too. I hope it could be a tool *for creating* co-op propsperity.

@Antanicus @alanz

@wu_lee @alanz @vfrmedia Camille better get her shit together because "cooperativism is an economic project without any associated political project" is possibly the biggest pile of steaming shit I EVER came across on any social media...

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@Antanicus
I had better, had I? Geez. I came on to Mastodon to escape that kind of talk.
@wu_lee @alanz @vfrmedia

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