Here is an interesting thought to post to a mastodon instance. From Dmytri Kleiner via P2P Foundation:
"Going back to an early Internet architecture of cooperative, decentralized servers, as projects such as Diaspora, GNU Social, and others are attempting to do, will not work. This is precisely the sort of architecture that anti-disintermediation was designed to defeat. Decentralized systems need to be designed to be counter-anti-disintermediationist."
@wu_lee he is right, but not for the reasons he provides. The problem is that platforms like Diaspora, GNU Social, Mastodon etc... all rely on ISPs to exist. Kleiner's idea of "[platforms] run[ning] on the computers of the platform’s users" won't solve a thing: ISPs can still lock people the fuck out of the internet as they please. Cooperatively owned ISPs are the only long-term solution to the anti-disintermediation problem.
@Antanicus: do you mean "ISP" as in a "internet connection provider" (like AOL, BT, Virgin Media) rather than "hosting service" (like whatever runs social.coop)?
So agreed, as but both can be counter-d15n'ed, wouldn't full anti-counter-d15n of the *gateways* (as I think you mean) require a mesh network, because the telco infrastructure is private and c-d15n'able?
> do you mean "ISP" as in a "internet connection provider" (like AOL, BT, Virgin Media) rather than "hosting service" (like whatever runs social.coop)?
-Yes, ISP stands for "internet service provider". Some of those also offer hosting services too, but that's not relevant.
- the telco infrastructure is private and c-d15n'able? That's why we need to overtake it and cooperatively own it. Local telcos need be the main target for this
@Antanicus @wu_lee alas there was even a point in Britain (late 19th/early 20th century where many telcos *were* locally owned (albeit by the Council) if not private companies; but because they *wouldn't* federate the Govt nationalised them into the Post Office and (as political views changed) later privatised as British Telecom, with the exception of Hull in Northern England. This remained in Council ownership until quite recently when the *citizens* of Hull *voted* to let it be privatised.
indeed. I am cynical about anything mentioning "blockchain", same with "devops" or all other buzzwords common in tech.
existing co-op ownership model *works* and has worked since 1880s and even survives in ruthlessly competitive environments such as retail.
I often get cycling jackets and winter gear online from a workers co-op in Scotland/North of England (folk there more likely to ride in winter so they sell better items than competitors in the South!)
@vfrmedia Agreed, and Cynicism++
Nevertheless, here we are on social media :) Also, see comments about limitations of coops here https://mastodon.social/@kavbojka/99303489020480815
Holochain may be a gimmick, but it is not a blockchain, as the authors are cynics of that too. I hope it could be a tool *for creating* co-op propsperity.
Not the point I meant.
It says otherwise successful co-ops can be undermined by global/free market forces.
Therefore if you advocate co-ops (and I, & I believe Camille and the authors do), and the article is correct, you need a way to counter that "system problem" to really "survive ruthelessly competetive environments like retail".
@wu_lee @alanz @vfrmedia the "system problem" is real, but if they can't see the deep political implications of the #cooperative movement I doubt they will ever solve it. This piece by Commons Transition, on the contrary, gets it right from the very title http://commonstransition.org/catalan-integral-cooperative/
I have been involved in coops for 20 years and have mentors who've been involved in coops since the 70s. I struggle to point to examples of coops being forces for broader radical sociopolitical *systemic* change. I'm all ears/eyes if you know of any. But effecting sociopolitical change is not some thing that is "baked" into the cooperative structure and that is why I call for an accompanying explicitly political project.
@Antanicus @vfrmedia @alanz
the Rochdale Pioneers of England *were* seen as radical in their day, but most modern UK cooperative businesses lean towards the centre left of politics at most.
There is a Co-operative party but its sort of a subset of the existing Labour party (I though it had disappeared, but its actually still quite active!)
Both are probably a bit left of the USA Democratic party, but not as left as "left/green" parties in mainland Europe..
Well, if taking power away from the capitalist elite and effectively seizing the means of production isn't a "baked in" political trait of coops, then I don't know what a cooperative is... One might argue coops lack a political presence in the traditional sense (ie. A party) but that's further proof of the deeply political message of coops: to hell with the failed representative democracy, let's get things in our hands.
@wu_lee @vfrmedia @alanz
My point is that the lion's share of cooperatives in the world would not describe themselves this way. I believe the majority of the world's cooperatives are, indeed, capitalist and pro-capitalist. I don't have data at hand, but I welcome it and am enjoying this debate immensely.
@wu_lee @vfrmedia @alanz
possibly out of perceived necessity rather than ideology. when then Rochdale Pioneers were around in 1800s, there were genuinely radical ideas in English society doing the rounds but even then those were equally accepted by other organisations with traditional power, such as various Christian denominations, and the CWS also provided genuinely better quality retail items at a fair price (esp food) so were still ultimately also competing in a market economy.
@Steve @alanz @vfrmedia @wu_lee @kavbojka
>can't imagine organizations that compete more or less successfully in the market as anything but capitalist
-that's the whole point of capitalism: to create a framework so strict and oppressive in nature (but called "free market" because you know, marketing...) that literally nothing can thrive or even exist outside of it
I became very interested in Community Supported Agriculture, there are many forms, but they all create a different economic relationship between a person & their food.
In some German CSAs members build a list of what produce they want, the growers calculate cost of production then members make secret pledges of the amount they will contribute, if not enough they reconsider produce to grow and/or have a second round of pledging and so on.
I used to be part of the local CSA. The farmers were lovely but the city part of it was/is the height of bourgeois white gentrifer nonsense. I think CSAs as part of a more fully realized solidarity economy have potential but I think most CSAs are elitist crap.
@Antanicus @Steve @alanz @vfrmedia @wu_lee
Possibly that may be so, although I know of a few that are doing stuff that I consider interesting/useful.
CSAs, like co-ops come in many forms and are ultimately made of & by people and the politics of them will depend on how the culture within them was built & has changed over time.
e.g. if you read early texts about The Rochdale Pioneers Co-op I think you'd agree it was a radical political project. Over the years that co-op....
@Antanicus @Steve @alanz @vfrmedia @wu_lee
Merged repeatedly with others & is now The Co-operative Group a huge co-o, which is far less radical. Itd be nice to think coops could get more radical, but I cant think of any examples.
I think stuff around food is particularly interesting. Here in the UK theres a political food/farming movement, which may be considered predominantly white & middle class that can be seen at The Oxford Real Farming Conference & in ..... @Antanicus @Steve @alanz @vfrmedia @wu_lee
The Land Workers Alliance a new union of small farmers that is part of the radical movement La Via Campesina, whose member organisations have a worldwide membership of over 200 million small & peasant farmers.
The CSA movement is growing and I think theres the potential to create CSAs whose members will have very interesting and unusual economic relationships around their food supply.
although the core people running the one in our town *are* fairly middle class (they had the resources to retire from high paying tech jobs) I certainly wouldn't class the wider segment town it feeds as "gentrified" (this isn't such as thing in Ipswich as its not a big city like London). Also our town is divided up by the river and road networks so ideally where should be a CSA in SW section (where I live) as well as East
@vfrmedia @wu_lee @alanz @Steve @Antanicus @dazinism @kavbojka I recently learned that American #CSA tend to be rooted in a Rudolf Steiner model, while most Canadian CSAs are derived from a model developed independently Japan. This is an interesting overview: https://casfs.ucsc.edu/documents/Teaching%20Direct%20Marketing/4.1_CSA_History.pdf
I'm part of one that is owned as a consumer co-op by the subscribers, of which there are only 2 I know of in the US: https://www.intervalecommunityfarm.com/
Check solidbase.info - its looking at software CSAs use https://discourse.solawi.allmende.io/t/contents-of-solidbase-info/289/5
The German Solawi (see https://discourse.solawi.allmende.io/t/clarifications-about-the-solawi-model/345 ) CSAs I mentioned are a focus, they are creating software to help them with budgeting
Regarding this fork of this discussion
More on CSAs, La Via Campesina, #SolidarityEconomy & #FoodSovereignty
In Germany we tell the story that CSA was somehow exported to the US by Trauger Groh. His epitaph from the German Solawi network:
I agree just like unions or political parties, cooperatives need to be conscious and explicit in striving for a better world (even while necessarily trying to survive in the present one). Another part of what allows co-ops to be less radical over time is not sticking to cooperative principles; collective democratic control *is* radical and gives the potential for rising to radical occasions. But even new coops fail on this: https://agaric.coop/blog/short-sad-life-wirth-grocery
@kavbojka @alanz @vfrmedia @wu_lee @Antanicus
@kavbojka @wu_lee @vfrmedia @alanz also, a bright example of politically active cooperative was "PSS Społem", a consumer cooperative founded in 1868 in then-partitioned Poland as a "political and economical self defense mechanism against the stranglehold of the partitioning powers". Another, more contemporary example is the Catalan Integral Cooperative, which Commons Transition defines as "a political project (...) to generate a self-managed, post-capitalist society based on P2P principles"
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