I've pushed a lot of rocks up a lot of hills, and every now and then one of them goes over. https://discourse.mozilla.org/t/synchronous-messaging-at-mozilla-the-decision/50620
@mhoye relieved to hear it; thank you
@mhoye Thanks for your effort and transparency on this work. I've been following it (not a closely as I had hoped, but still) from the perspective of another similar org (Wikimedia) in a similar situation.
The links are making the rounds, multiple times, in the Wikimedia IRC channels today :)
@liaizon @strypey @Greg they stuck with irc for a long time, and it was a disaster for their community. Their participating community was small and stagnant until they switched to slack. The people who champion IRC just _do not see_ how awful it is, how hard it is to start using, and how much of a barrier to participating it represents.
@liaizon @strypey @Greg If you care about being an open, participatory organization and then choose IRC, then the hurdles people need to clear to participate are "learn unix, then learn IRC, then figure out what channel to be in and who to talk to with no scrollback." In terms of “Ease of getting involved” it is one of the worst possible choices.
@mhoye @strypey @Greg I don't disagree with your synopsis. But there are options that are open that are user friendly like mattermost, rocketchat and... Matrix, which is coming a long way. Also just recommending a web client like https://thelounge.chat goes a long way to solving most of your critiques of IRC...
@mhoye @liaizon @Greg yes, @strypey speaks the truth. I found their obstinate anti-FOSS position - to the point where they wouldn't even look at the many already mature FOSS options - extremely discouraging, particularly as they were consulting about their "values" and mission statement at the time, and the use of Slack specifically contradicted several of their stated values. I lost respect for CCHQ over that. And wrote this re IRC & Slack: https://davelane.nz/notslack
@lightweight @liaizon @Greg @strypey
And if your idea of "mature" FOSS options meets our list of requirements - "is usable in a web browser", "has a robust API" and "is accessible to people who rely on screen readers" then by all means, show me this wide variety of mature FOSS options. But don't conflate "I don't want to change my tools because I have reasons" with "this is definitely good and can work great for everyone" and call that a set of principles.
@strypey @mhoye @liaizon @Greg organisations that, in the name of increasing diversity, abandon their founding principles and alienate their most active and committed supporters, may achieve diversity, but at the cost of depth. It corrupts almost everything they (claim to) value and costs them those who know the history & hold a wealth of tacit knowledge. I think it's possible to achieve greater diversity without erasing an organisation's identity.
@lightweight @strypey @liaizon @Greg I’m a carpenter, and I only ever use a hammer, using screws is an affront to my identity, you can’t hammer in a screw and I can use the hammer to make more nails or hammers so that makes it better, you can’t do that with a screwdriver, and if people use screws they’re abandoning years of hammering practice, I’m in favour building different things or bigger buildings but not at the cost of hammering nails being all we ever use to build them.
@mhoye @lightweight @strypey @Greg can you all please untag me in further discussions of this issue. I have no interest in hearing the defense of VC funded tools. If you need a subscription to access the "Hammer" then that is not a tool that is a capitalistic virus that needs to be burned to the ground.
@lightweight @strypey @liaizon @Greg We have shit to do. The world is on fire and software is helping that happen and we need to get everyone on board as fast as we can to fucking fix it, and seeing FOSS purists day they won’t get involved if they can’t use _their special tools_ to do it is like hearing that somebody only waters their bonsai with their traditional handmade watering can when you just told them their house was on burning down.
@mhoye @lightweight @strypey @Greg And we are working really hard on ALL THREE of those issues. Those are all equally important. The software is the front we have made the most progress on but projects like #NYCMesh and #Freifunk and #SSB are working on the infrastructure/bandwidth issues. Projects like the #Reform and #Pine64 are working on the hardware and the blobs. We have to tackle this from all fronts.
@mhoye @lightweight @strypey @Greg *my* point is that there are tools that *are* open that are ready to use today. Yes some of them might have proprietary blobs or non free code in them. The point isn’t purity. The point is autonomy against a capitalist virus and the only way to move forward is to use the tools that are available. If they exist in a open form we need to utilize them. If they do not we need to figure out how to open them or replace them.
@liaizon @lightweight @strypey @Greg I guess this is the crux of our disagreement, then; “If they exist in an open form”, as in; being open is enough, or the only important factor. And I say it’s not. Usability matters, accessibility matters. The human is always more important than the code, and openness is a means - one of many - to an end.
@mhoye @liaizon @strypey @Greg I'd argue that "proprietary" is a show-stopping bug. Here's why: https://davelane.nz/reflections-proprietary-software
@lightweight @strypey @liaizon @Greg When the choice was between IRC or Slack, that choice was effectively between software purism and organizational effectiveness and relevance, and I _guarantee you_ that what your organizations leaders hear when the purists advance that argument is these employees saying, loud and clear, that they think their own beliefs about software are more important than the success, and sometimes existence, of the company.
@mhoye @strypey @liaizon @Greg The choice was never between IRC and Slack. It was between IRC and Slack/Discord/Yammer or - if the org didn't want to be beholding to a multinational corporation's proprietary platform - Gitter/Zulip/Rocket.Chat/Mattermost/Riot&Matrix. They all developed fairly concurrently. Ultimately, leaders of communities like CCHQ were deeply lazy. They mistakenly assumed that Slack enjoys a network effect and used that flawed logic to defend their decision.
@mhoye thank you for persevering with project sisyphus and for placing your trust in Matrix :D
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