@micahflee minor remark: no, on Mastodon "Tweets" aren't called toots. ActivityPub "notes" or microblog entries are called toots.

Mastodon is not a Twitter clone and has outgrown that initiative these days. Maybe a better way to put it would be "toots on Mastodon are comparable to Tweets on Twitter". I think the statement makes it sound like Mastodon would be cheap Twitter copy, which both of us know, it's not. Thanks :)

@sheogorath very true, it was just the simplest way to quickly describe a "toot" in a parenthetical statement :)

@Johnny_of_the_swamp en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gab_(soc "Co-founder and CEO Andrew Torba has cited 'the entirely left-leaning Big Social monopoly' and an alleged bias against conservative articles by Facebook as his reasons for creating the site." lol

@Johnny_of_the_swamp I think the point is that what should be a non-political software project aligning itself with a pro-hate-speech platform is not ideal.

@Johnny_of_the_swamp > Last I checked Richard Spencer is still on Twitter.

That is a con for Twitter, which is almost as bad, sure, not a pro for Gab. Twitter is already a cesspool, imagine what a platform of people that had to be 'booted off' it is going to look like lol

@jonah @Johnny_of_the_swamp

I am glad you take this position. Even more a reason for me to inform you, that several individuals that are part of somewhat the core of privacytools.io are in favor of whonix promoting gab.
If you need names and logs, I could see if I find it in the chat history.

@jonah @Johnny_of_the_swamp

oh wait, while I'm writing this, I remember you engaged on exactly this topic already with me.

I pointed out to you that your community members support Gab.

You responded with ridiculizing me.
Have you changed your mind?

People of your community gave/give support to Gab and so to facism.

Confront it, or be confronted!

#isolategab @isolategab

@syster PrivacyTools is a diverse group of people that all work hard to promote online privacy, even if I don’t agree with everyone’s opinions all the time. And if they choose to share them on their own time and personal accounts who am I to stop them? It’s a volunteer-based project, not some sort of employment.

@jonah
1. no, it's not very diverse. It contains mostly out of liberal white cis dudes.
2. you are giving support to Gab-supporter on the base, that they share resources with privacytools.io. That is concering to me.

@syster > It contains mostly out of liberal white cis dudes.

again - what do you want me to do about this then?

@jonah

1. that you listen to concerns that are related to discrimination and that you take them seriously, even more when it is linked to fascism.
2. that you take position against discrimination, even more when it is linked to fascism.
3. that you will never play again the "but they have supported that project, so I don't call them out/in" card.

@jonah

4. that there will be reflection about your and your communities whiteness (it's not about your skin color, it's about an ideology, that if you have never identified as such, you'll be reproducing it.)
5. that there will be reflection about free software being political and what it means if this political sphere is open to fascism.
6. that action will result from this reflection

@Johnny_of_the_swamp

the @isolategab project started - as far as i remember - way sooner than gab de-federated.

@jonah @syster

@micahflee I don’t need Whonix, but your quote, together with Ed’s, made me want to try it a couple of months back. Done with that idea now. Glad you wrote this.

@mewmew how so? why else would the people who run Whonix choose to lose so much support rather than changing their mind about their neo-Nazi social media presence?

@micahflee maybe they disagree with your assessment that it's a neo-Nazi social media?

@mewmew then perhaps they would explain that point of view to everyone asking them wtf. But instead they silently ignore these questions and lose support from antifascists

@micahflee I don't think they should ignore the concerns, but I don't think it's a good reason to call them fascists themselves.

@mewmew I didn't, that's why there was a question mark in the headline. It leaves open the possibility that they're not fascists, though they also quite likely are

@micahflee Gab is not only for fascists although it's true that there are many of them there.

@c3po that's like saying Stormfront is not only for fascists

@micahflee I don't know them but I know some people who are also in Gab and they are not fascists, only that they choose an instance where there are some tech people too but avoid or ignore/block fascists.

@micahflee Why should it matter, as long as the code does its job? Are you suggesting considering politics over operational security?

@x

First, yes human rights and fighting fascism is more important than operational security. Obviously. You're ok with associating with Nazis?

But also, Whonix isn't the only option. It's possible to torify VMs without it. Whonix is complicated and heavy, and I think there are better implemented ways of doing the same thing

@micahflee While I agree fighting fascism is important, I'd argue that a person in need of secure comms wouldn't think twice about using any software that gets the job done, and done well. But indeed, if the person had the luxury of time & choice they should probably choose something else.

> Whonix isn't the only option

Oh, that's great then. Ditch it altogether.

P.S.: I attended your talk at Nullcon and I appreciate your work!

@micahflee What better implemented ways are there of torifying VMs? Have you reached out to the Qubes team because Patrick Schleizer is on their website and development team as well?

@x @micahflee So it doesn't matter if you use a service from me, even tho I hate Indian people or support nazis, for instance?

@eletrotupi @micahflee I'm speaking from the perspective of someone in dire need for secure communications systems. I apologize, I should've made that clear in my initial toot.

Such an individual would probably not think about the politics of the developer.

@micahflee Nice write up. Patrick's actions appear suspicious AF.

@micahflee And so what is the theory you’re drafting here? Whonix is run by Nazis, who apparently strictly approve of Jews that are serial rapists, in an effort to rebuild the Fourth Reich?

@retroartdt I'm not drafting a theory, I'm pointing out disturbing and problematic behavior within in an important free software project.

(And Nazis are fine with Jews that share their worldview. Just look at Stephen Miller, a Jewish Nazi in the White House)

@micahflee @retroartdt

> (And Nazis are fine with Jews that share their worldview. Just look at Stephen Miller, a Jewish Nazi in the White House)

this is an oversimplification. There are both nazis who are fine with jews sharing their worldview and nazis who hate jews.

@retroartdt @friendly_antifascist

Sure, but sometimes they make tactical decisions.

They also hate gay people but look at Milo Yiannopoulos, a proud neo-Nazi who's been filmed doing Nazi salutes.

They also hate black people, but look at Candace Owens, a black woman neo-Nazi who says the problem with Hitler's nationalism is that they wanted to conquer the world, not just make Germany an ethno-state.

Neo-Nazis prop up their Jewish, gay, and black supporters because it helps with recruitment

@micahflee
So, because 1 person doesn't respond to emails about the very same subject and you concluded that gab is a fascist network, you then conclude that he must be a fascist (singular btw) too?

Whonix's 'follow' category contains a whopping 17 links, including Twitter, Facebook and YouTube, but you're not reporting on their problematic relation to privacy/freedom/democracy?
Or is that because TheIntercept is on there too and not on freedom respecting platforms?

Bit hypocritical imo.

@micahflee
FTR:
- I don't like gab. Mostly because they take FOSS and rebrand it to make it look it's their own work and don't give back (afaik). Normally I give ppl the benefit of the doubt, but not with gab users.
Whonix likely receives a constant barrage of email wrt their gab presence. Therefor them not responding isn't all that weird. And no proof of fascists sympathies.

- I like/support TheIntercept and link to their articles quite often. Their absence on FOSS platforms annoys me thou

@FreePietje

My blog post about Whonix doesn't have anything to do with and isn't related to The Intercept.

Gab is a social network for fascists. I didn't conclude Patrick is fascist, I just pointed out problematic and fascism sympathizer behavior -- he clearly cares more about protecting Whonix's association with fascists than he does about the Whonix project.

While Twitter, Facebook, YouTube, etc all have terrible qualities, and Nazis use them, none of them are designed for and by neo-Nazis.

@micahflee
I know it was on your personal title (and site).

I'm aware that gab has a disturbing number of users with disturbing ideologies; hence them not getting the benefit of doubt.
I do not think that all gab users are fascists or it is meant (solely) for fascists (an elephant is an animal, not all animals are elephants).

Explain to me how "Is the Whonix project run by fascists?" and Patrick runs the project, does not lead to the conclusion that Patrick is a fascist?

@micahflee
The reason I mentioned Twitter/FB/YT and TheIntercept was to point out that presence on a network does not equate to endorsing that platform.
Even though it does strengthen that platform. Especially if that's the only way to get in contact or communicate with it.

If Whonix had only 1 link (to gab), yeah, that would've been problematic in my book (as well). But it's 1 of 17 and that does make a difference to me.

@FreePietje it's unclear whether or not Patrick is fascist, and when he gets asked about his problematic behavior, rather than explaining himself ("I think Gab is just a free speech site not a fascist site", for example) he refuses to give a rational, which makes it seem like maybe he's fascist. But hey, maybe he's not. That's why there's a question mark

@micahflee
Based on forums.whonix.org/t/long-wiki- and whonix.org/wiki/Limitations_on (found within 5 clicks from your "maybe" link) it is apparent to me that he is strong proponent of free speech. Due to time and legal requirements he has limited it on whonix.org, but hopes that gab.ai can succeed (as it's not a side project).

My guess that he's tired of having to explain himself over and over seems quite plausible.

I still think the fascist accusation is unwarranted.
But heh, free speech and all that ;)

@micahflee

So, for your information:

I watched some parts of the youtube videos and researched a bit.

* some of the persons he is involved with are right wing populists, but i'm not sure if patrick knows that. For instance, he describes one of them as anarchist.
* for instance the above video with the right wing populist is rather about economics and state. The part i have watched is not somewhat typical right wing speech like "the elite wants to manipulate you, climatechange is a lie" or things about immigration/other cultures.
* the impression i have is that he is just curious about stuff and is fallen for people with great rhetoric skills. If that's correct, the potential label fascist hurts more than it helps.
* So if you are in a similiar situation in the future, i'd advise you to notify an antifa group from germany (for instance) and only when you both have a good understanding, you make everything public. In my experience, this is more effective in dealing with people in this area.

So in general: i'm not sure. I have emailed him a blogarticle regarding gab instance from the mastodon-team, so i will wait what he responds.

in any case: thanks!
@micahflee

to put it another way:
he has read and liked content similar to breitbart news (basically a german counterpart to that) in the past, but i'm not sure how deep he is in this scene. Especially, because many years have been passed since this has been posted.
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