@njoseph and who teaches them the skills to keep the stuff up to date and secure? Let alone to run it in the first place. Most people aren’t able to do that and don’t have the time and will to learn it.
@nielsk Please read my first reply on that toot.
Mastodon's 500 character limit didn't let me fully describe my intent.
@njoseph I did. How long does it take to have all your services up and running again when your single board computer or the disk with enough space for all your stuff fails? Do you have a monitor server to see problems when they come up? What do you do when Debian breaks one of your services? What are you using as your secondary MX? A second FreedomBox?
I think it is a good idea basically but has several problems in execution.
@njoseph Especially when you put in people who do not have the time or will to learn the stuff. I wouldn’t be able to fix my own car either
@nielsk I like the analogy. The current situation with digital services is like everybody is using rented car services. Self-hosting is like getting your own car. There will be some maintenance effort but more freedom. Not everybody that drives a car has enough skill to be a car mechanic either.
Automation of servers is easier than car maintenance automation. Self-hosting services typically are self-maintaining and come with automatic backup and restore.
@njoseph they do? The last time I checked for example my Nextcloud notifies me about updates, has often problems with the automatic update and I have to intervene and I didn’t see anything about backups (except the “backup” before an upgrade which won’t backup all the data to a different server)
@nielsk I have to agree that we're not there yet. A self-hosting solution won't replace a professional sysadmin. It should be seen as a good enough utility that automates enough of the day-to-day maintenance that normal smartphone-using people can use it without much IT skills.
BTW, I wouldn't categorize NextCloud into the same category as FreedomBox.
@nielsk I agree that it's somewhat complicated to execute but we do have people running FreedomBoxes for years now.
We don't have all the features yet - full disk backups, email servers, notification systems and dashboards etc. but they are being actively developed.
Debian does break things in testing and unstable releases. It is safer to run the stable release instead. Early adopters are running the testing release for now.
@njoseph I saw Debian-systems running stable where software broke. Especially when you did a dist-upgrade from 8 to 9 and had the upgrade from php 5.6 to php 7.
@njoseph the thing is that people who are interested in dabbling with IT-systems are running Freedomboxes and not John and Jane Doe from their living room.
@nielsk I think we already concluded on this discussion that #CommunityHosting is a better solution than self-hosting for now, if you read the original thread of the toot.
But the fact that people are able to maintain their own Android phones gives me hope that self-hosting can be a viable option in the future. (One can still argue that many people still can't maintain their own Android phones).
@njoseph Android is such a bad example with its short EOL-times and that cheap devices come already with an EOL-Android and you do not get upgrades from the manufacturer. And flashing is beyond many people.
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