Today is the first day I felt like bird site here on Mastodon. I understand it is the Indian men and not the website at fault. But gender issues is important to me. I hate men who try to mansplain to me about women issues. I felt really happy reading the rules of Mastodon which said sexism & advocacy of sexism is not allowed. I am largely peaceful in debates unless provoked, today was just a bad day with bad men around I guess, why didn’t we leave this men in bird app? *sighs*

@Deepsealioness So what if not my fault. I should do it just to make you feel better.
As I have said earlier, a social media which doesn't take a toll on mental health especially for politically aware and active people can only be realized if we heal for every wound by either apologizing or through praise/appreciation posts.

@Deepsealioness hehe. Thanks.
BirdSite handle I deleted it long time ago actually. Was fed up. Got into argument with few folks on national security and since I used to engage in mostly politics, economy and geopolitics it was difficult to stay there among constant arguing and trolling. Also it was consuming too much of my time while offering little in productivity/new learning. So thought it's better to focus on books & research papers than social media...1/2

@Deepsealioness ...but now I am here on another social media. :angery:

Even if I were active, you wouldn't have liked my profile as I followed many RW & centrist voices apart from usual LW voices. Also you wouldn't have liked my views on geopolitics. I am a realist. 🙈

@Deepsealioness oh I meant argued here not on BirdSite.
Don't remember exactly but it was something about sanghis. You labeled all of them as something and I argued that not all of them are such and BJP voter-base is a complex set of people. We just can't label all of them as blood thirsty people. They have a variety of reasons to vote the way they do.

@ninad @Deepsealioness
U said these same reasons to me.
Can't label them as one.
Variety of reasons etc.

Dunno, why this didn't occur to me when I replied to u.
But, whatever reasons they have, they vote for BJP, they are responsible for things going wrong today.
No reason can justify voting for them.
I have fought with NRIs giving What'sapp forward info to show their support.

@KnottedBow
Yes they are responsible for BJP being in power. That is a different thing than labelling all of them as haters or people who wants Hindu Rashtra.
Yes both you and me may agree that there can be no reason to vote them, well surely a lot of people disagree. There can be economic reasons, security (both internal and external) reasons (speaking as a former teenage supporter of BJP even before I could vote - plz don't kill me for this), TINA for some et al. 1/2

@Deepsealioness

@ninad
U know, when there is a big fight,
like
With BJP or against BJP
There is only one way.

I have been seeing anti BJP differ in opinions and some even come to fights...
But when they vote, they are all decidedly antiBJPee.

BJPeee stands for hate. Didn't start today, since 1992, my first awareness of their hateful nature.
I am not a Muslim either, but just a human being, who saw what hate they were capable of.

so TINA is an excuse they propagated.
No reason good enf.

@Deepsealioness

@KnottedBow
I am not justifying any of the reasons I cited. I am just saying that they ARE a part of a set of reasons. Both you and @Deepsealioness are refusing to recognize that.
Propaganda doesn't work instantly. Both to push people into false narratives away from reality and to bring them back to reality, we have to constantly hammer them with information. In that battle, BJP is clearly ahead for now.
It's politics. We cant 'hope' people will understand our side and vote accordingly. 1/2

@ninad
Accha...tell me this.
U were a BJPuan u said.
Have u changed now ?
If so, why ??

There are a lot of BJP voters of 2014, and mentioned so in their birdsite bio, who now are decidedly against BJP. Why do u think they changed ??

And let me tell u, ppl may have reasons at micro level, that's up to them, but when we talk, it is always general. No one does each village analysis 🤦‍♀️
@Deepsealioness

@KnottedBow
You still asking? Isn't it clear my pref changed?
Why change? Well so many reasons. No point reiterating them here. You know all of them.

Yes many people changed their views. Again reasons are diverse.

By examples of villages I am not justifying their choice. I am just making a point that people have different reasons for voting. It is wrong for you and @Deepsealioness (going to run after this coz she will definitely kill me) to label them all as hate mongering sanghis.

@ninad
Bhai... Kisi ne bola all 100% BJP voters are hate mongers ?? 🙄🤔
But also a fact, majority bJp voters vote for a reason.
Reasons many, end result is same.
But, they sure give power to the hate mongers, so they become enablers na.

There is a snake in the ground. U will wait to find out if it poisonous or not, before u decide to run ??

@Deepsealioness

@KnottedBow
I never denied they are enablers.

And yes I think you both labelled ALL of them under single category. Baki itni mehnat Kyu karvayi mujse. I even had to take a knife from
@Deepsealioness
In the process.

@ninad
Let me put it simply to u.
Single catagory, yes, of BJP voters. Sahuliyat le liye, we call them sanghi, coz that is their start point.
For hate or for Tina or Kajol or Ravena, whatever reason, end result is same.
bJP gets vote.
The hate agenda of BJP gets promoted.

We have colleagues and acquaintes in real life who are BJPians. Can't avoid. Don't discuss politics with them either, that's my escape.
There is life beyond politics too.

@Deepsealioness

@KnottedBow
I agree. Friendships should go beyond political divide. Although I think
@Deepsealioness will disagree with this. She appears to be really ready to kill anyone who would even think of supporting them. Thank God she didn't find me 5 years ago. :blobsweats:

@Deepsealioness
On a serious note, I might write an essay of sorts on this. Coz I just realized that if knowledgeable people like u 2 think on these lines, it is quite possible so many others do too. If so, v r heading in wrong direction.
Although I still think u know the reality, you are just clouded by your emotions right now to recognize it. I am not denying the large presence of hate in BJP's base. But certainly not ALL of them are such. Significant amount can be won over
@KnottedBow

@Deepsealioness
Sigh. I don't know what to say. It's unfortunate.
All I understand is this :

Not all of BJP voters are haters. Many of them can be won over. The institutions are bent, not broken. There will always be a fighting chance and we should not give up.

You may call me ignorant or naive (not innocent - therez no reason to be polite on this) but I refuse to give up. Everyday I fight in my family and college group. Decently though. Try and convince people.
@KnottedBow

@ninad @KnottedBow As someone who is at risk due to voting for BJP as a woman and due to my husband you are actually asking us to sacrifice our dignity so that you can convince others to change and vote. I don’t need to be your ally because your interests are against me, no?

@ninad @KnottedBow you are asking patience from Dalits, minorities and women who are worst affected to accept the second class treatment while you try to fix the bigoted or ignorant morons, how is that fair?

@Deepsealioness
Well it's definitely not fair. But then what do you want me to do? On one hand you are pessimistic about future. On the other hand you are scolding me for saying we should try and defeat them!
@KnottedBow

@ninad @KnottedBow am saying there is no defeat just collapse, all of us go down due to some idiots voting for them, then we rebuild a decent society and am working on that decent society which has to be built , don’t care about currents happenings, it will collapse

Follow

@Deepsealioness
Well it's difficult to gauge the success rate but does convincing 3 of my friends and 2 elders in the family count? Small steps :blobcat:
@KnottedBow

· · Tusky · 1 · 0 · 3

@ninad @KnottedBow individually yes but collectively no . Unless we accept and acknowledge the real reason for voting for bjp it’s very difficult to make collective changes

@ninad @Deepsealioness @KnottedBow keep doing what you do best...i feel that's how it works...each one at his / her pace...we cant enter value judgements based on the quantum of work. Each act and step in the right direction matters when it comes to making india hate-free....

@ninad
Change of larger groups. Which is why you giving excuses doesn’t help. We need to accept that Hindus have actually been made to feel inferior by bjp and they say only it we are in power you will have your status intact & majority doesn’t care about what price muslims pay for our insecurity

@KnottedBow

@Deepsealioness
Larger groups i understand. I am asking HOW?
Also, what I said aren't excuses from my point of view. I see into and beyond both eco chambers and try to bridge them. Result - get lashed at from both sides. I am mentally tired of debating the same things over & over. Not going to argue on this anymore coz I am tired and more importantly any more arguing would feel to me like forcing my opinion on u which I will never do. 😔

@ninad well each one has a moral burden to take the country back from fascists and hate mongers. We try to educate, your way comes out more as apologists, mine aggressive but end goal is we need to fix this

@Deepsealioness I see the same logical fallacy here in being apologist as the “not all men” thing. I am with you on this one. Hmm... even this comment is probably redundant! But I have typed it so might as well post.

@tariquesani agree with you being apologist only emboldens the losers unwilling to change. I say call it out exactly as it is

@Deepsealioness

I am very horry to hear about the oppression Hindus are facing. For what it is worth I find hindus to be beautiful people with a rich history that is worthy of admiration? Hindus rock!

@ninad @KnottedBow

@freemo

Hindus are the oppressors not ge oppressed. We have voted for Hindu nationalist parties including a terror accused into the parliament . Their main goal is othering muslims and making them second class citizen. Am hindu but totally against this supremacy

@ninad @KnottedBow

@Deepsealioness

Ahh I see, I knew musslims were oppressed but I figured both groups were. At least in america and in europe both groups are oppressed so I guess thats why I assumed it. It makes sense that in indian itself that isnt the case...

Well I still think hindus rock and deserve the appreciation, but I can also add that i have many amazing muslim friends and every one of them are the sweetest kind of people I know, so they rock too :)

@ninad @KnottedBow

@freemo

Hinduism also has oppression, Hinduism divides people into castes based on birth and they are ranked upper cast , lower caste so upper caste has oppressed the lower caste by denying them education, dignity of life for thousand of years

@ninad @KnottedBow

@Deepsealioness

Fair point, hinduism obviously is where the caste system came from.

But I'd like to point out that is also just one manifestation of hinduism (and sadly it might be the dominant form in india).

But I do know many hindus who do not believe in the caste system and do not believe that their religious system ever intended for there to be a caste system (Even though they do believe in reincarnation and the evolution through that process).

So in cases like this it is important for me to point that out, in the same way i point out that not all musslims support Jihad as an actual physical war.

As with all religions there are many interpritations some are harmful some arent. Thankfully all the hindus i know reject the harmful parts and do not see it as a valid part of the religion. In fact they view the caste system as contrary to the hindu religion, the people I know at least.

@ninad @KnottedBow

@static

I personally find buddhism speaks more to me as a philosophy, in that way I agree. But I have just as much respect for hindus as a group as i would any other culture really.

@Deepsealioness @KnottedBow @ninad

@freemo
Yup to me too. I love to read debates between Buddhist scholars and scholars of the Vedanta school of Hindu thought. They are so rich in metaphysics :blobaww:
@static @Deepsealioness @KnottedBow

@freemo @ninad @KnottedBow it is nice that upper caste Hindus accept that casteism is wrong, being one myself who doesn’t practice casteism and had an inter caste marriage I think it is wrong of me to say I don’t follow caste so casteism doesn’t affect me. I benefit from the caste privilege whether I reject it or not and that is what most don’t understand you not being casteist doesn’t help , you should be anti casteism

@Deepsealioness

I think most of the hindus I know are expicitly anti-caste. IF anyone suggested a caste based law or social dynamic they would speak out against it.

@ninad @KnottedBow

@freemo @ninad @KnottedBow and that is not enough is what am saying. Untouchability is still existing here, lower caste folks are killed for riding a horse or entering a temple. The rape against lower caste women is amongst the highest. Just not supporting casteism doesn’t help

@Deepsealioness

Well im not suggesting it is the **only** thing they do. Honestly i dont know what efforts they make in their free time to oppose it if any.

Also kee in mind im talking about hindus I know mostly in america. So there isnt much caste based oppression in america they could address anyway.

@ninad @KnottedBow

@freemo @ninad @KnottedBow yeah there most folks who had privilege to move would be upper caste folks and they don’t want to look bad in front of others. I know in Florida there is a retirement colony which permits only vegetarians to buy houses there which my uncle has a house in. The upper castes are vegetarians largely, they have brought casteism there just not enough for others to understand

@Deepsealioness

All of the huindus I met I can say were absolutely sincere in their anti-caste position, they arent the type of people who would say something just to look good.

I am not however implying this is the norm amongst all hindus everywhere.

@ninad @KnottedBow

@Deepsealioness @freemo @ninad

Why go Florida ?
We have in India too... Soooo sooo many...
In Guj it is here.
unfortunately, down south also, at least one, that I positively know of, coz I lived 4 blocks away from it
Vegetarians only buildings.

@Vishsai @Deepsealioness @freemo @ninad
Ha ha
Why not.
And exchange dishes...
Have common eating parties weekly..
Mast enjoy kara 😂

@KnottedBow See the possibilities. Butter chicken made by a Punjabi
Kashmiri Rogan Josh
Beef fry from Kerala
Bengali fish curry
Smoked pork from Assam

Eat what you like.

@Deepsealioness @freemo @ninad

@Vishsai @Deepsealioness @freemo @ninad We need to bring back " Hum Log" days
Raazi Khushi... Sab ek saath...
Sab gadbada gaya hai... 😐😊

@Vishsai

Meatatarian housing only, no vegetables allowed.

That added benefit is such a housing system would have a life expectancy of only a few years. So the turn-over to resell houses would be huge :)

@KnottedBow @Deepsealioness @ninad

@freemo @Deepsealioness @ninad @KnottedBow Dr Freemo, I can't help but feel you're relying a little too much on anecdotal evidence. Caste is deeply intertwined with the history of Indian religions and political power. It takes a great deal of privilege to go through life without ever facing it - it's woven into the way the religion operates.

@AKanisetti

How so? I never claimed anything to the contrary of what you jsut stated. I never claimed caste issues werent a part of the history of india nor did I claim it was disconnected from religion in any way.

I see nothing in what you said that I would disagree with or anything that my previous statement contradicted.

@Deepsealioness @ninad @KnottedBow

@freemo
Yes there are many interpretations but fact remains that oppression did happen and as
@Deepsealioness calls it - systematic oppression happened. So no matter what today's upper castes think or do, they cannot change history. Thus unless we root the mentality out, we cannot get even near to being an egalitarian society.
But I am positive because slowly and steadily, it is happening. :blobcat:
@KnottedBow

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