I'm actively recruiting volunteer devs for a native Signal / Signal-like client in Gtk, in the hopes that we can bring it to the @Purism Librem 5 phone. Please contact sean.obrien@puri.sm if interested.

PGP/GPG: FA9D 40F1 5FE1 D8AB 8312 4AAA 77E3 1447 CD1F C3F6

@philippemargery @61 @Purism Signal isn't "bad". In a nutshell:

OpenWhisperSystems / the devs behind Signal made the choice to centralize the service and build identity around the phone number system, instead of doing the federated / decentralized approach.

They did this consciously to encourage widespread adoption without the traditional difficulties associated with a decentralized, multiple-client approach.

That makes it different from approaches by Matrix.org, XMPP, and so on. 1/2

@philippemargery @61 @Purism OWS has had a contentious relationship w/ FOSS devs who want alt. clients/forks of Signal that interop w/ OWS network

From the OWS perspective, it's important to keep the UI/UX consistent; alternative clients degrade the user experience for everyone on the network, and use expensive resources. Security and QC are impossible to verify for apps out of OWS control

The FOSS-y arguments are familiar, and include the fact that centralization is dangerous for freedom. 2/2


Wow. It is indeed intriguing. Thanks for that. What messenging up do you use? My family is fed-up with me asking them change app all the time.... 😂
@diggity @Purism @maxeddy

@philippemargery @61 @Purism @maxeddy on F-Droid, Conversations.im or Xabber are the popular apps, but there are many: search.f-droid.org/?q=jabber&l

You have to get an XMPP account somewhere first (my preferred method is donating to the FSF!)

> my preferred method is donating to the FSF

Sadly FSF's XMPP server looks like unmaintained. It's running 2 year old ejabberd server and the compliance isn't really stellar: compliance.conversations.im/se

I'd say it rather gives "classic XMPP" experience instead of "2019" one :)

@61 @philippemargery @diggity @Purism @maxeddy
What about all the metadata that your XMPP server (and the others you contact to) can see and manipulate? I was using Conversations.im but just leave it after discover about this.

I realy like the concept behind #XMPP, federation is the best way, but i can't recomend it to friends yet becouse this things about an admin or an adversary. I can use it but can't recomend it for every one. I don' t belive the capitalist privacy laws too mutch, I belive more in code. Signal apear to be more efecient at this moment but I would love if xmpp evolve in this questions.
@philippemargery @diggity @Purism

@Gorio @61 @philippemargery @diggity @Purism Most modern #Jabber (#XMPP) clients support OMEMO: end-to-end encryption. I've been using it as my main chat network for 6 months now with e2e, works perfectly!

@stevenroose @Gorio @61 @philippemargery @Purism XMPP is great but we're putting our focus on Matrix as the default and are supporting development of apps for that purpose. We want to see others develop chat clients for XMPP etc for Librem 5.

My interest in Signal is to meet user expectations, as a "bridging" technology... we want the people who buy our phone to use it and not have two phones. Signal may be contentious, but I'd like to see the option (just like a "Conversations.im clone" etc).

@diggity @Gorio @61 @philippemargery @Purism I'm not gonna make the mistake and suggest a single app with backends for the different protocols.. #Pidgin

I understand that you have to prioritize for user demand. Let's hope someone takes up the task of implementing a Jabber client.

@stevenroose @Gorio @61 @philippemargery @Purism chat "swiss army knives" are always problematic in one way or another, and even Pidgin userbase is mostly XMPP from what I see (OTR still because no decent OMEMO?)

Tor Messenger was killed partially because libpurple is a beast of a codebase... Purism won't be heading in that direction.

Nothing stopping a libpurple app (even Pidgin w/ a tweaked UI) from Librem 5... our base is Debian; we focus on Gtk and GNOME. Qt is of course an option as well.

@diggity @Gorio @61 @philippemargery @Purism Yeah I was specifically confirming that the Pidgin approach is not a good idea. I have 0 experience with GTK. #Dino is doing quite great as a Desktop Jabber client.

@stevenroose @Gorio @61 @philippemargery @Purism yep, I've used Dino. No full release means no inclusion in distros, so that still limits its reach, but it's a nice app. Reminds me of Cryptocat, which is another (not often mentioned) favorite, even though the desktop version (the browser plugin was abandoned a long time ago) is quite stable and well-tested.

@stevenroose @Gorio @61 @philippemargery @Purism the only "major" problem porting these other chat apps to the Librem 5 will be the UI norms we're used to with desktop chat windows: almost all of them (Signal Desktop included) have a split view and two vertical panes, with contacts on the left and conversations on the right.

We need apps that are responsive for a mobile view.

Without this UI issue there's only the question of dependencies... which wouldn't be a problem in many (most?) cases.

@diggity @stevenroose @Gorio @61 @philippemargery @Purism Why not focus on HTML, javascript, to build a truly cross-platform client?

@diggity Waiting for improvements on #gnome #fractal messenger. Thanks a lot funding the development on #matrix client. :debian: 👌

@Gorio Interesting read. Generally, however, it's not surprising that people who administer whichever kind of infrastructure also will have access to (meta)data collected all along the way, and be that just for being able to provide a given service. We either need *true* (serverless) peer-to-peer solutions or a way to provide *trustworthy* operations of critical infrastructure. Just to have FLOSS code available to "run your own" doesn't help here.

@61 @philippemargery @diggity @Purism @maxeddy

@Gorio @61 @philippemargery @diggity @Purism @maxeddy
hast really dumb Arguments, as they apply to literally every webserver, mailserver and dozens of other services. not using e2e is generally a bad idea, we knew this before…

@philippemargery @61 @Purism @maxeddy I've actually found Wire to be the lowest friction E2EE messenger, with the friendliest interface, for friends and family in one-to-one conversations (though they have Wire Teams too).

@61 @philippemargery @Purism @maxeddy I'm very much aware of the tracking issues with Wire and have engaged with them directly about it. Basically, if you don't check two boxes about user metrics and stats reports upon first startup, the settings are disabled.

Still, it means you're putting trust that the UI is doing what it says it does.

Yes they are very open to working with the community but have a small team... there hasn't been enough support for making a libre version without that code.

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