@ryanleesipes @matrix

oh no, if the implementation is gonna be the same quality as the xmpp support (no e2e encryption), i don't think it's a good idea to roll that out to so many users.

@guenther @matrix by the time it hits stable, it'll support e2ee following how it is done in clients like Element

@ryanleesipes @matrix oh good, now the spyware program known as thunderbird can spy on matrix messages too!

@PestToast @selea So it's spyware because it contains a web component and an extension popularity contest that could be switched off (I'll grant you that it should be opt-in, rather than opt-out).

This means every web browser is also spyware, according to these definitions.

I'll continue my use of TB, and I'm looking forward to the Matrix integration!

@PestToast Thank you for that broad, sweeping generalisation instead of some actual arguments as to why you think I'm wrong, that really gets the point across.

@doenietzomoeilijk I presented arguments via that link. Your response is that you don't care about being monitored as long as you get x new feature. That makes you a part of the problem. There's not much else to say.

@PestToast no, my response was that I think the arguments in that link are overblown, since they classify every bit of internet-facing software as spyware, which is a bit silly.

If using internet-facing software makes me part of the problem, I guess I can welcome you to the club, as well.

I'm all for being privacy-conscious and I strongly dislike spyware and its I'll, but this attitude you display might be a bigger problem to adoption of better software. People don't like zealotry.

@doenietzomoeilijk You're basically saying 'I've already been shot in the arm, why would I care if I get shot in the leg too? In fact, "I'm looking forward to" the shot in the leg, because it comes with a thing I like!'

You think the zealotry is annoying, and I think your mindless enthusiam and dismissal of concerns is annoying.

Software companies should not be encouraged to do bad stuff just because they give you a little treat.

That is why you're part of the problem.

@PestToast yes, a mail client with a web engine and tools to make setup easier for regular users are, of course, akin to grievous bodily harm.

Let's agree to disagree here, I don't think this discussion is going to go anywhere productive.

@doenietzomoeilijk

>not understanding how analogies work

No wonder you can't understand the problem with your thinking.

@doenietzomoeilijk @PestToast @selea most web browsers are indeed spyware. Virus has improved lately, DuckDuckGo on Android is good, but the rest are mostly terrible, especially Chrome which dominates desktop and mobile.

I'm also unhappy with @Matrix being inserted into Thunderbird. I used Thunderbird for >10yrs @Matrix for years and I don't want both in one app.

@ryanleesipes @matrix So, instead fixing an e-mail part of an e-mail client, they will add more functionality nobody asked for?

@kanazir @matrix we've a ton of people to our team. Only one of 15 is working on chat. We can improve the email experience and improve chat.

@ryanleesipes @matrix So, you are rewritting Thunderbird in JavaScript? It is getting even worse! I would like to see how you plan to rewrite SMTP in JavaScript because that language has no sockets functionality.

@ryanleesipes
Still no Close/Minimize To Tray option for TB in the roadmap? Don't get any notification of new emails when i closed TB. Hence I won't use it for Matrix chat if I don't receive instant notifications of new chat messages.

@jwsp1 we do have minimize to try for Windows. What platform are you on?

@ryanleesipes
This is new to me. I'm on Windows, soon Linux. Can you please tell me where to find this setting?

@maze @ryanleesipes @matrix Maybe after the OpenBSD project has their own server/client software for it.

@maze @ryanleesipes @matrix Ha. Well... you can’t search encrypted rooms on mobile. And message retention is not controlled by end users.

@greypilgrim no search on mobile is a client problem, and what do you mean by message retention? "autodelete after x"? thats just security larping.

@bonifartius I do not mean that. I mean message retention in the fashion that Matrix Synapse server implements which is for DB space management. Add a new client to your account after messages are deleted from the server and it won’t be able to download them. This is different than email because a user can play within their mailbox size limitation not time frame limitation.

@greypilgrim yeah, but that's because messages can be "deleted".. i don't like that feature very much, in the end it's more of a strikethrough than removal :)

then, i don't think that mail should be replaced but that there should be interoperability. the olm crypto isn't really good for how async mail is though.

@ryanleesipes @matrix oh so now it will be more unstable because it's a chat client, cool cool

@ryanleesipes @matrix If the implementation is similar quality as the XMPP and IRC chat features they already have, you are probably better off continuing to use element...

@Pest Toast An ad hominem is usually the best way to invalidate your contribution in a discussion.

@ryanleesipes @matrix Please keep non-email features as optional extensions. Please.

@aslmx @matrix many chat protocols have always been shipped in core Thunderbird and it hasn't been a problem. It's under the chat button on the inbox screen.

Folks have been using IRC and XMPP through it for a long time. It is not in by default.

@ryanleesipes @matrix I know. And due to the limitations i never used it. But i accepted the fact that it was integrated. Now when something is going to be built into Thunderbird i'm asking you to not do it 😉 I will probably continue to use TB either way, but my personal opinion is that Matrix should not be integrated into TB.

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