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Hey guys, Thunderbird is STILL hiring developers. You can help modernize an application used by ~20,000,000 people and growing!

The open source community can make something better than Outlook, but only if folks come and build it.

thunderbird.net/careers

@ryanleesipes maybe they would find someone more easily if they didn't use Upwork to hire. Like, I would apply this second.

@meka @ryanleesipes wth is that about? Is this new or how thunderbird has been operating?

@1ll173r47 @meka depending on where you are we've begun hiring directly. But if you are in a country where we don't have a presence we use partners. Just depends, not always Upwork. 🤷 Hiring all over the world is hard, but we're doing the best we can.

@ryanleesipes @1ll173r47 I'm in Serbia, so is there any alternative to Upwork here?

@whilelm /sigh

I agree that something like "hey y'all" would be better (and it's what I use!), but this is just being wilfully pedantic. English doesn't really have a gender-neutral collective informal greeting besides something like y'all (which has historically been limited to the southern US in terms of reach), so "hey guys" has sort of taken the place of a proper gender-neutral greeting *whether or not it should*.

@chiraag please don't lament to me for a pattern that exclude half og the many people

@whilelm @chiraag sorry, typically I use "Hey folks" - but I'm just an infallible person. I don't mean to exclude anyone.

@ryanleesipes That's ok Ryan, that was just a way to tip you on this matter. Thank you for your ack.

@chiraag

Yes it is. Gimme a break with your "inclusive language".
You explained it to him actually. "hey guys".

@ryanleesipes shared a job offer with nothing else in mind, a job for a FOSS moreover. You have to be a retard to see bad intent.

Then you have @whilelm (who blocked me btw)
which is a dude - so not even his business - and apparently lefty activist from France (so quite boring :)).
You can see his timeline, it'is full on anti-RMS for the moment.

So yes, this is an "emmerdeur".

@hicks @ryanleesipes @whilelm I literally made it clear later that I _do_ assume the best intent in many cases. But that doesn't mean we can't perpetuate harmful assumptions. It doesn't require bad intent to be harmful.

I'm a cishet dude, but I also _listen_ to people when they say something is harmful. Seems like you just want to dismiss me (or someone else) based on their identity (rather than actually engaging with the points that are brought up).

@hicks @ryanleesipes @whilelm You have to be a special kind of insecure to feel threatened by explicitly gender-neutral language.

@chiraag

"best intent" but you used the old rhetorical trick of repressed fear against me.

The point is: "Hey guys" is a well known meme/slang, it was not exclusive, nor offensive, especially in this context
This @whilelm was not even interested by the offer and just thrown his dump away as an inquisitor and going on his hunt against RMS.

> It doesn't require bad intent to be harmful.

So your intent to not make it harmful... is harmful.

You start to get it or?

@ryanleesipes @whilelm

@hicks @whilelm @ryanleesipes @whilelm You're hell-bent on keeping things the way they are, where 'guy' is used as a synonym for 'person'. I'm not, because I recognize that times change. That's pretty much all that is going on here. You don't want to acknowledge that harm can be perpetrated without intent.

How is what I (or others) doing harmful? People are literally just asking for a change in language to make it more inclusive. OP even admitted they messed up, and only you are fighting back.

@chiraag
"OP even admitted they messed up."

You put the pressure on him, he is representing his employer as a community manager.

> You don't want to acknowledge that harm

No I don't because no woman complained.
Ho, they couldn't act on their own?! Why are you diminishing them?
And also I see how @whilelm acts on his timeline.

> I recognize that times change"

...

@whilelm @ryanleesipes @whilelm

@hicks @whilelm @ryanleesipes @whilelm I don't understand why you have such a problem with a push for more inclusive language.

OP literally said they normally use more inclusive language and this was a slip-up. They weren't "pressured" into anything.

Maybe more women aren't speaking up because they think (rightfully so) that they'll get asinine responses like yours because the FOSS movement is full of toxic assholes like yourself. Yeah, it's name-calling. Yeah, I don't care.

@whilelm Fair enough, it was a bad take.

I guess I tend to give the benefit of the doubt in cases where it's clear from the context (i.e. Thunderbird's official job opening page) that they're not _trying_ to be exclusionary. I agree, though, that the casual use of gendered terms isn't exactly great and _should_ go the way of the dodo (and the dodo should go the way of gendered terms in our current language! 😂)

@chiraag

You won't get hired, for sure. You seems already a pain in the ass.

Show your C++ skills, nobody care about your genitals (original or artificial)

@whilelm

Come on @whilelm . don't pretend

1) an opensource project won't hire a woman
2) an employer won't hire a skilled woman

And if you start like this, it's unlikely that you will get something.

Because one thing that most people dislike is whinnies (be it a boy or girl).

I wish you good luck too.

@ryanleesipes

@hicks
Your second point is exactly what happens statistically. Of course that's not even the only problem and there are many reasons.
This topic not only applies to women but to queer people as well.

I agree, that @whilelm was a little rough at the beginning. But I also believe this is nessecary to address those problems.
@whilelm @ryanleesipes

snippy commentary 

@ryanleesipes

> It should use web technologies and not rely on XUL widgets - the new
front-end is intended to serve as a testing ground for finding solutions
that we will need also elsewhere in the UI as we converge towards using
HTML.

soo.. they are building yet another webmailer? 😬

@ryanleesipes I seriously hope accessibility is a *huge* issue in this "modernization*. Thunderbird is seriously the only good accessible GUI email app on Linux. I mean, we seriously *can't* lose this.

@ryanleesipes
Best of luck!

Could someone also improve Evolution? After 20yrs with Thunderbird I had to switch to Evolution due to their new treatment of gnupg. Also scales much better with zigillons of email and calendar fully supports caldav discovey.

@xro @ryanleesipes friend of mine is happy with mutt, since 25years...

but its mutt.....

@ryanleesipes Nice to see some more web tech in Thunderbird.🤗

Is there any consideration of implementing some parts in Rust instead of C/C++ in the future?

Thank you for sharing this!❤️

@ryanleesipes i'd say Thunderbird has been better than MS Outlook for more than a decade. This is just increasing that lead.

@lightweight

Unfortunately, the most useful feature: "search" is really bad.

I still use Thunderbird though well, most likely because it has near good balance between complexity and user friendliness.

@ryanleesipes

@hicks @ryanleesipes huh. Are you using IMAP for your mail? In that case, search is as good as your IMAP server's search... but I've always been pretty impressed with T-Bird for search... and the quick-search bar (needs to be enabled) is essential - I use it many times a day - it's pretty instantaneous, and I have many GBs of mail.

@lightweight

Quick search? "Quick filter", you mean ?
I do have it but it works only in the active selected directory. And when you do, it use the default search.

What I want - or expect let's say - is a global search searching thru the selected mailbox (not subdir) and showing match in the right order.
But indeed, I do use IMAP but TB keeps a local copy (cached), doesn't it?

Not sure if it is a good thing to hijack this thread, though. :)

sorry @ryanleesipes

@hicks
You have to search bars, the top one is searching anything in TB.
The lower one is more limited.
@lightweight @ryanleesipes

@ryanleesipes for a moment there i thought that was "/developed/ by 20,000,000 people" and i was like "christ, and they need more developers?? no wonder mozilla ditched them"

Hi @ryanleesipes , I have a few questions about the positions: remote is globally remote or it is restricted to people living in selected countries? Are the web tech (JS/HTML/CSS) requirements hard? I have professional experience in C++, but only done some hobby stuff in web technology.

@pitbuster hey! It's globally remote, we have folks from all over the place.

We do have some C++ work that needs doing. I think if you have a background in that, it shouldn't be too bad to learn the other stuff, but I encourage you to brush up on JS, just because. 😁

@ryanleesipes I'd be more impressed if Thunderbird upgrades didn't totally trash my theme/format selections. That shit really pisses me off.

@ryanleesipes @angristan I thought #Mozilla was embracing #Rust.. Thst page reads

> Mail protocol implementations or re-implementations in JavaScript.

...?

@ryanleesipes i know many people who would maybe apply if you don't hire only fulltime. just a hint.

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