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@ente@chaos.social @webmind @strypey and yes, burnout is a huge problem. But poretty much unsolvable unless "our side" starts having enough resources to manage such campaigns not as emergencies...

@rysiek @ente @webmind @strypey Responding in emergencies does create outrage and makes it harder for the opposition to respond and compromise, so short-term, it has some advantages.

@rysiek
If only we had popular organizations with big budgets that let people make it their job to participate in the political process and fight for us.
@ente @webmind @strypey

@webmind @pesco @rysiek @ente @strypey
I bet many people wouldn't mind a government that does completely nothing.
A feature freeze of sorts.
No new law.
Everything keeps working as it was before.

Yeah, I know it wouldn't work long-term. But so often it seems that every time someone proposes a change to the law, someone takes it as an opportunity to inject their shitty article into it.

@Wolf480pl
I actually think there should be a "deterministic 'NO' party" whose program is literally to vote against *any* change to the status quo. A default to choose if every other party seems terrible, a force to to make the others have to be not terrible.
@webmind @rysiek @ente @strypey

@pesco @webmind @rysiek @ente @strypey

Sounds like a great idea.

I wish bots or smart contracts had passive election rights.

@rysiek @pesco @webmind @ente @strypey
yeah I know how it sounds, but at least you could hardcode it to always vote "NO", and everyone would be able to verify it.

@Wolf480pl @rysiek @pesco @webmind @ente being able to delegate your franchise to a smart contract isn't an inherently stupid idea, at least for non-binding referenda. Arguably it's analogous to the way you can delegate your vote in #LiquidFeedback. The hard (maybe impossible) part would be figuring out how to encode your voting preferences in the smart contract in a way that can't be gamed

I wish I made the above post unboostable.

The smart contract part was a
j o k e.

@pesco @Wolf480pl @webmind @ente@chaos.social @strypey you're describing the conservative parties. That's where the name comes from.

And they're usually the worst. Blocking marriage equality, gender equality regulations, environmental regulations, etc etc.

Even in it's aout *preserving old business models* in the age of Internets. So conservatives are often the ones who are voting for , by and large.

@rysiek @pesco @webmind @ente @strypey

This is not what he's describing.

It's not about preserving the overall status quo, it's about paralyzing the parliment.
Therefore, the proposed party must vote "NO" in all circumstances.

@Wolf480pl @pesco @webmind @ente@chaos.social @strypey yes, but *by definition* this preserves old regulation. Like marriage inequality, like freedom to polute. There is literally no good reason to have a party like that. This will no achieve anything.

What we need are parties that vote sane. Not obstructionists.

@notclacke @strypey @ente@chaos.social @webmind @pesco @Wolf480pl in that case you would not have any environmental regulations. No marriage equality regulations.

Each mobile phone manufacturer would still create their own precious charger plug. Remember that fun?

We would not have Roam like at Home, which means I can use my Polish SIM card in the rest of EU without paying an arm and a leg.

@rysiek @Wolf480pl @pesco @webmind @ente @strypey

Charger plugs was already solved by China, before it entered EU legislation.

Roam like at Home would be missed. Obviously there are advantages and disadvantages to halting the process. An obstructionist party is for those who look at the balance of outcomes and considers it more negative than positive.

@rysiek @pesco @webmind @ente @strypey

It will change the game.

The basic idea behind democracy is that to rule, a party needs support of the society.
Currently there's an anomaly that if the society doesn't support any party, then some party still gets to rule, even though the society doesn't support it.

What I propose is that if the society doesn't support any party, then NOBODY gets to rule.

This will change the incentives for parties, because they'll have to be better than nothing.

@Wolf480pl @pesco @webmind @ente@chaos.social @strypey bullshit.

Society supports parties that got elected. PiS has 35-40% in polls in Poland, all the time.

Not sure which reality you live in.

@Wolf480pl @pesco @webmind @ente@chaos.social @strypey and that 35-40% is enough to get >50% in the Parliament, because of the electoral system in Poland.

Perhaps we should change that system to be more just?

Well, that would require voting "Yes" on something.

@rysiek @pesco @webmind @ente @strypey

35-40% is still less than 50%.
Also, some people vote for "better of two evils".
Also, maybe some people who don't vote would vote for "NO" instead.

Also, an old and well-known evil is better than new evil, because people know what to expect and have workarounds for some issues.

Manufacturer-specific phone chargers weren't that bad, from my POV.

@Wolf480pl @pesco @ente I think @rysiek 's point is that if a NO party could get more votes than the currently governing parties, the same people could probably organize themselves to do something more constructive, like bring in a new electoral system, or an entirely new form of democracy not dependent on elections

@Wolf480pl @pesco @ente @rysiek
I do like the symbolism of empty seats, representing the non-vote. I even had some ideas about organizing a No Confidence party that would legally bind itself not to attend or vote in parliament.But the problem in practice is it concentrates the power of elected representatives in an smaller and even less representative number of hands. What if your 5 votes (or whatever) were the difference between something awesome happening (eg ending drug prohibition) or not?

@Wolf480pl @pesco @webmind @ente@chaos.social @strypey what will change the incentives is changing the electoral system to Single Transferrable Vote:
youtube.com/watch?v=s7tWHJfhiy

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_t

Instead of coming up with hare-brained schemes involving obstructionism and blockchain, perhaps we should first do some research into actually viable solutions?..

@rysiek @pesco @webmind @ente @strypey

I wasn't serious with the blockchain part. Sorry if that made you angry.

I know about STV, but it's pretty complicated, It'd be a big change to the electorial system, and would the whole thing harder to understand. OTOH, a "NO" party is simple, and doesn't require changes in the electorial system.

I'm not saying it'd solve all problems, or most of the problems. I'm just saying it's an idea worth investigating.

@Wolf480pl @rysiek @pesco @webmind @ente
> "I know about STV, but it's pretty complicated"

I've voted in STV elections for local govt back home, it really isn't that complicated. People who can't be bothered thinking it through still have the option of treating it like a FPP election, and just putting (1) next to their preferred candidate instead of a tick. You could even have a rule that a tick counts as a (1) for that candidate in case people get confused.

@strypey @rysiek @pesco @webmind @ente

I'm not saying they're hard to use, I'm saying they're hard to reason about.

@Wolf480pl @rysiek @pesco @webmind @ente what do you mean "hard to reason about", and why are they harder to implement than any other voting system?

@strypey @rysiek @pesco @webmind @ente
It's harder to implement a new system than to slightly adjust an existing system, especially that the "NO" party could be implemented without any change to the existing implementation of voting system.

By "hard to reason about" I mean, it is harder to predict how your votes will affect the results, harder to externally verify if the system functions correctly, and harder to predict how it'll behave as a part of a larger system.

@Wolf480pl @rysiek @pesco @webmind @ente I was involved in the attempts to bootstrap a #PirateParty here, and I know some of the people who campaigned successfully to change #NZ from FPP to MMP. I also know co-founders of new political parties, some successful (eg Greens), many not (eg Cannabis, Pirates), some mixed (eg Alliance, Mana). I think you underestimate how hard it is to set up a new political party from scratch, *especially* in a FPP electoral system.

@strypey @rysiek @pesco @ente

Yeah, I'm probably underestimating how hard it is.
I'm looking at it as if it was all software, which it isn't.

@Wolf480pl @rysiek @pesco @webmind @ente as for "hard to reason about", all of your arguments apply to MMP. It's still been a much better system for my home country than FPP. We had a recent referendum about whether to keep MMP, in which the corprate lobby fought tooth and nail to go back to FPP, and lost. Which illustrates both why its better, and how much more invested people are in politics in proportional representation systems.

@Wolf480pl @ente @webmind @pesco @rysiek @strypey Several places use them regularly, so implementation seems a solved problem?

And reasoning about them ... I guess opinion polls become a more difficult issue, would be interested to hear how that works in places that use them.

On the plus side, the election provides more data on voter preferences, which would be fun for statisticians to mine. Unless more information just means harder to reason about. :-)

@notclacke

@Wolf480pl @ente @pesco @rysiek @strypey

I'm more interested in more involvement. Less about voting. Please don't @ me about voting systems they bore me and tbh are as stupidly simplified as clicking 'like' is.

@webmind sorry, will untag you from all further posts about voting. I'm curious, what does political involvement and decision-making look like to you without any kind of voting system?

@strypey voting is one thing, but I would hardly call it involvement. Pressing like/dislike is hardly anything. Outside how people skew numbers.

I'm interested in discussion. Politicians for instance talking to people. Actually getting content from people, not just numbers.

@webmind Sure, but everyone talks to people. How do you channel that into productive decision-making? In my experience this doesn't just happen, and when it doesn't, bad things can happen

@strypey

Well given a representative democracy, decision making can be done by those in power. but those parties are usually way to much removed from people.

@strypey

Decision making structures are one thing. Developing a basis on what one can make decisions another. The latter I find more interesting.

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@notclacke @Wolf480pl @ente @pesco @rysiek
(note I have untagged at-webmind as requested, please do the same on all further discussion about #voting)
opinion polls just assume, as they do in #FPP, that the candidate will get the same proportion of votes as there are people in the poll saying they want them to win. #STV make even more sense for #elections where more than one person can win, like seats on a council or committee.

@Wolf480pl @rysiek @pesco @webmind @ente the *huge* advantage though, is that I can vote for the green candidates, which still giving my vote to the safer social democrat candidates if the green candidates don't get it. If I was a right-libertarian, I could do the same but giving highest preference to any right-lib candidates, to make sure I wasn't splitting the vote and helping the socially conservative candidates get in.

@Wolf480pl @rysiek @pesco @webmind @ente people think low voter turnout is caused by voting being "complicated". I think that's patronizing bullshit. It's because whoever you vote for, one of the corporatist white guys wins (and or maybe corporatist white or brown women but ...), so people think why bother? STV fixes this and makes voting much more worthwhile for people who feel represented by neither the "left" nor "right" of the centre-right corporatists

@strypey @ente @webmind @pesco @rysiek @Wolf480pl What if you don't believe its possible for one person to meaningfully represent millions of others

@bob @ente @webmind @pesco @rysiek @Wolf480pl then you put more energy into local elections, like community boards and councils, where the candidates represent much smaller numbers of people ;) Or you work on trying to get whole countries to use something like #LiquidFeedback for making country-scale decisions, but I talked to an ex-MP about that once, and he made some good arguments about why it would be hard to make that work well. It's an intriguing topic, and one I'm always up for!

@rysiek
I absolutely agree that the NO party would not make good policy, I sure wouldn't vote for them, and I believe in order for them to be constitutional they couldn't even traditionally advertise that you should.

I take your point that there would be large overlap with conservative parties by definition. But would it be worse than a conservative party? At least it would be cheaper and less susceptible to corruption. :)

@Wolf480pl@niu.mo

@rysiek
Anyway as @Wolf480pl says, there are people, as a matter of fact, who hate all parties and feel betrayed by a menu of terrible choices. It's a large part of the current populist surge. So a literal NO choice would be seen as a corrective term to steer the system back to a reasonable menu "before it comes to Trump".

Hope that makes it clear that I don't actually *want* obstruction. ;)

@Wolf480pl @strypey @ente @webmind @pesco @rysiek Some people have suggested that instead of appointing seats according to votes as a fraction of the total votes given, appoint them according to votes as a fraction of the eligible voters. To let those empty seats remind politicians in every session what level of support they actually have.

@pesco @ente@chaos.social @webmind @strypey if you're referring to EDRi, Mozilla, and others -- sure. Mozilla has a particularly big budget and their doing great things with that.

Still, compared to the budgets of Internet behemoths or huge pulishing houses, these are peanuts. And let's not forget where Mozilla's money is coming from, and how this source might quickly dry up if policies change...

We need *citizen-supported* organizations. With large budgets that are mostly individual recurring donations.

@rysiek
I meant *parties*. Large associations of people, partially funded by tax money [in my home country at least] that make day jobs out of politics for the people they represent.
@ente @webmind @strypey

@pesco @ente@chaos.social @webmind @strypey yes, that's a very good point. But we need to get involved and make parties make sense again. This will not happen on its own.

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