@ente@chaos.social @webmind @strypey and yes, burnout is a huge problem. But poretty much unsolvable unless "our side" starts having enough resources to manage such campaigns not as emergencies...

@rysiek
If only we had popular organizations with big budgets that let people make it their job to participate in the political process and fight for us.
@ente @webmind @strypey

@webmind @pesco @rysiek @ente @strypey
I bet many people wouldn't mind a government that does completely nothing.
A feature freeze of sorts.
No new law.
Everything keeps working as it was before.

Yeah, I know it wouldn't work long-term. But so often it seems that every time someone proposes a change to the law, someone takes it as an opportunity to inject their shitty article into it.

@Wolf480pl
I actually think there should be a "deterministic 'NO' party" whose program is literally to vote against *any* change to the status quo. A default to choose if every other party seems terrible, a force to to make the others have to be not terrible.
@webmind @rysiek @ente @strypey

Follow

@pesco @Wolf480pl @webmind @ente@chaos.social @strypey you're describing the conservative parties. That's where the name comes from.

And they're usually the worst. Blocking marriage equality, gender equality regulations, environmental regulations, etc etc.

Even in it's aout *preserving old business models* in the age of Internets. So conservatives are often the ones who are voting for , by and large.

@rysiek @pesco @webmind @ente @strypey

This is not what he's describing.

It's not about preserving the overall status quo, it's about paralyzing the parliment.
Therefore, the proposed party must vote "NO" in all circumstances.

@Wolf480pl @pesco @webmind @ente@chaos.social @strypey yes, but *by definition* this preserves old regulation. Like marriage inequality, like freedom to polute. There is literally no good reason to have a party like that. This will no achieve anything.

What we need are parties that vote sane. Not obstructionists.

@notclacke @strypey @ente@chaos.social @webmind @pesco @Wolf480pl in that case you would not have any environmental regulations. No marriage equality regulations.

Each mobile phone manufacturer would still create their own precious charger plug. Remember that fun?

We would not have Roam like at Home, which means I can use my Polish SIM card in the rest of EU without paying an arm and a leg.

@rysiek @Wolf480pl @pesco @webmind @ente @strypey

Charger plugs was already solved by China, before it entered EU legislation.

Roam like at Home would be missed. Obviously there are advantages and disadvantages to halting the process. An obstructionist party is for those who look at the balance of outcomes and considers it more negative than positive.

@rysiek @pesco @webmind @ente @strypey

It will change the game.

The basic idea behind democracy is that to rule, a party needs support of the society.
Currently there's an anomaly that if the society doesn't support any party, then some party still gets to rule, even though the society doesn't support it.

What I propose is that if the society doesn't support any party, then NOBODY gets to rule.

This will change the incentives for parties, because they'll have to be better than nothing.

@Wolf480pl @pesco @webmind @ente@chaos.social @strypey bullshit.

Society supports parties that got elected. PiS has 35-40% in polls in Poland, all the time.

Not sure which reality you live in.

@Wolf480pl @pesco @webmind @ente@chaos.social @strypey and that 35-40% is enough to get >50% in the Parliament, because of the electoral system in Poland.

Perhaps we should change that system to be more just?

Well, that would require voting "Yes" on something.

@rysiek @pesco @webmind @ente @strypey

35-40% is still less than 50%.
Also, some people vote for "better of two evils".
Also, maybe some people who don't vote would vote for "NO" instead.

Also, an old and well-known evil is better than new evil, because people know what to expect and have workarounds for some issues.

Manufacturer-specific phone chargers weren't that bad, from my POV.

@Wolf480pl @pesco @webmind @ente@chaos.social @strypey what will change the incentives is changing the electoral system to Single Transferrable Vote:
youtube.com/watch?v=s7tWHJfhiy

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_t

Instead of coming up with hare-brained schemes involving obstructionism and blockchain, perhaps we should first do some research into actually viable solutions?..

@rysiek @pesco @webmind @ente @strypey

I wasn't serious with the blockchain part. Sorry if that made you angry.

I know about STV, but it's pretty complicated, It'd be a big change to the electorial system, and would the whole thing harder to understand. OTOH, a "NO" party is simple, and doesn't require changes in the electorial system.

I'm not saying it'd solve all problems, or most of the problems. I'm just saying it's an idea worth investigating.

@strypey @rysiek @pesco @webmind @ente

I'm not saying they're hard to use, I'm saying they're hard to reason about.

@strypey @rysiek @pesco @webmind @ente
It's harder to implement a new system than to slightly adjust an existing system, especially that the "NO" party could be implemented without any change to the existing implementation of voting system.

By "hard to reason about" I mean, it is harder to predict how your votes will affect the results, harder to externally verify if the system functions correctly, and harder to predict how it'll behave as a part of a larger system.

@strypey @rysiek @pesco @ente

Yeah, I'm probably underestimating how hard it is.
I'm looking at it as if it was all software, which it isn't.

@Wolf480pl @ente @webmind @pesco @rysiek @strypey Several places use them regularly, so implementation seems a solved problem?

And reasoning about them ... I guess opinion polls become a more difficult issue, would be interested to hear how that works in places that use them.

On the plus side, the election provides more data on voter preferences, which would be fun for statisticians to mine. Unless more information just means harder to reason about. :-)

@notclacke

@Wolf480pl @ente @pesco @rysiek @strypey

I'm more interested in more involvement. Less about voting. Please don't @ me about voting systems they bore me and tbh are as stupidly simplified as clicking 'like' is.

@strypey voting is one thing, but I would hardly call it involvement. Pressing like/dislike is hardly anything. Outside how people skew numbers.

I'm interested in discussion. Politicians for instance talking to people. Actually getting content from people, not just numbers.

@strypey

Well given a representative democracy, decision making can be done by those in power. but those parties are usually way to much removed from people.

@strypey

Decision making structures are one thing. Developing a basis on what one can make decisions another. The latter I find more interesting.

@strypey dunno, it's a wide topic. But for instance how to get politicians more connected to diverse crowds of people, but also how to educate people on topics on the 'political agenda'

@strypey @ente @webmind @pesco @rysiek @Wolf480pl What if you don't believe its possible for one person to meaningfully represent millions of others

@rysiek
I absolutely agree that the NO party would not make good policy, I sure wouldn't vote for them, and I believe in order for them to be constitutional they couldn't even traditionally advertise that you should.

I take your point that there would be large overlap with conservative parties by definition. But would it be worse than a conservative party? At least it would be cheaper and less susceptible to corruption. :)

@Wolf480pl@niu.mo

@rysiek
Anyway as @Wolf480pl says, there are people, as a matter of fact, who hate all parties and feel betrayed by a menu of terrible choices. It's a large part of the current populist surge. So a literal NO choice would be seen as a corrective term to steer the system back to a reasonable menu "before it comes to Trump".

Hope that makes it clear that I don't actually *want* obstruction. ;)

@Wolf480pl @strypey @ente @webmind @pesco @rysiek Some people have suggested that instead of appointing seats according to votes as a fraction of the total votes given, appoint them according to votes as a fraction of the eligible voters. To let those empty seats remind politicians in every session what level of support they actually have.
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