Meanwhile Signal Android stopped working on my . I can receive messages, I just can't send them. Yay.

There is Whisperfish for :

...but the last release is from April, and it has the very same problem. -_-;

And moxie cannot be bothered to standardize the protocol, because "the ecosystem is moving". FML.

Update, Whisperfish seems to be sending messages just fine, just not to my other Signal account. Weird.

@rysiek Hypothesis: It's about control.

The reason Signal isn't federated, is because Moxie wants to be able to change the protocol at any time. He famously blogged as much.

Rapid client/protocol changes would also become effectively unmanageable if they had multiple binary desktop apps shipped through various channels not directly under their control.

When federation becomes a realistic option, client diversity probably will as well.

@HerraBRE oh, that much is entirely clear to me. Thing is: federation will *never* become a realistic option, because moxie does not want that.

Signal would benefit from having unofficial clients, and one way of doing that would be versioning the protocol and saying: "hey we will support that version for X months". That would at least give client developers a timeframe to shoot for!

As it stands, it "you can't have the cookie and can't eat it either". No native clients, and no help for devs.

@rysiek No disagreement. Just venturing the hypothesis that it's the same underlying reason.

Because everything you just said would apply to federation as well.

@rysiek After reading this I am thinking about doing my best to have alternatives ready besides Amazon dependent Signal #signal #privacy #amazon

@Ajz I've been looking for an alternative for quite a while.

Tox shot itself in the foot multiple times, not sure what the current status is; also, no store-and-forward.

Briar is Android-only (and no store-and-forward).

Wire? I mean... Need to check it out I guess. But their website is very "proprietary-ish", and weird. Can't figure them out.

And I am not touching the corporate bullcrap with a ten-foot pole.

@rysiek I've tested Briar, Wire, Jami, Tox, Retroshare, Kontalk among others. It depends on user case and priorities I'd say. Briar is quite cool, but has no option for attaching images or files, and you really need to meet up in real life to exchange and connect. I tested it with a friend but decided to remove it because I had too many apps "standby" eating battery power. I like Wire, voice chat has really nice quality sound. Android app is not free from trackers according to Exodus. Is easy to use and sign up via web though, and EU based. Afair (been network checking) is also using Amazon services. I read something that running your own Wire server could be possible in the future ? Here's the easy URL skipping all the commercial bla bla. And no need to sign up with phone number like with Signal. #wire #privacy #messengers

@rysiek @Ajz
Briar has a native desktop app on the roadmap:

What is "store-and-forward"?

@etam @Ajz two contacts, A and B. A is online, B is not. A sends a message. A goes offline. B becomes online later. B receives a message.

The message has been stored and forwarded *somewhere*. For Signal and other server-based systems that's on the servers. For p2p systems, that's not an option, so a different solution is needed.

Briar has that on the roadmap somewhere too.

IMO, a proper XMPP setup with Conversations is the least bad alternative.

@gcupc @Ajz I refuse to consider XMPP (I used to run 4 XMPP servers back in the day) until it unfucks itself and has a clear standard of which XEPs clients and servers *must* implement. A single, well-defined set.

Currently it remains to be a clusterfuck.

@schmittlauch getting there. We could talk whether it's a good idea to complicate things by having "compliance levels" and a difference between "Core (Client|Server)" and "Advanced (Client|Server)", but that's definitely a step in the right direction.

However, it's been published as a Draft Standard almost exactly a year ago. Let me know when it's a Final Standard. Why is it taking so long?..

@rysiek They split it up, because you can use XMPP for pretty anything, from sending IoT data, WebRTC signalling to actual instant messaging. So you shouldn't force users of one to also comply with others.
Regarding the draft statis I don't know, you might read XEP-0001 for getting the.meaning of "draft". Because the 2019 compliance list is already in the making.

@schmittlauch @rysiek it's worth including a mention of the Conversations compliance test list here to show the scope of adoption.

There are lots of admins putting in the work out there. All mine are at 100% on the list and it's really not a lot of work.

@mike @schmittlauch @rysiek Yep, compliance tester is great - this is SSLLabs for XMPP.

Actually it was that put a pressure on XMPP server & client developers to provide secure, modern client. It works great even for non-technical people!

@rysiek @Ajz What about Jitsi? Is it any good? I installed it, but I didn't have anyone to talk to to test it, and I didn't want to force it on my family until I've tested it.

@rysiek @Ajz Possibly? I don't know anything about it. Does it federate with other XMPP servers, or it private?

@loke @rysiek Jitsi client software can be okay/nice for XMPP and for SIP calls. Then there is also Jitsi Meet, WebRTC for voice calls. I've tried both and it is okay but for XMPP I'd rather use Gajim and Conversations or another XMPP app. #jitsi #jitsimeet #XMPP #SIP

@rysiek @Ajz Have you looked at Matrix?
The current homeserver is a bit heavy to run, but it works well. Their E2E seems pretty good, had a positive audit, and has been implemented in native desktop clients as well

@foks @Ajz oh was there an audit of the e2e encryption? Then I am definitely testing this soon! Thanks!

@rysiek Yes, at least for libolm

They are currently working on making the UX for it more user-friendly as well, when that's done E2E will be enabled by default. For now you can enable it on a per-room basis in the settings

@foks okay then, waiting for it to be enabled by default. For the purposes of this discussion I refuse to consider any tool that does not enable e2ee by default, and I am uncomfortable with considering any tool that even has a cleartext communication option.

@rysiek that's valid, I'll keep you posted when it's enabled by default (if I remember).
(current communication is still all https so not quite cleartext)

@foks @rysiek @Ajz

I use mostly signal but wished I'd have more contacts in jami (old name: ring) or in riot (matrix)

Is there anything else?

@rysiek @foks @Ajz
Im sorry. It works on my end. Besides, you are searching something to use with sailfish. Not sure what clients they have for sailfish and how the android-versions work.

@whirli @foks @Ajz nothing to be sorry about. Weird. I'll need to check in a different browser.

Anyway, not only Sailfish, but something with a more open ecosystem. So that yes, Sailfish clients can be made and keep working. But that's just one part of it.

@foks @rysiek Yes, tested Matrix server and client in the past. is calling Matrix a day because of maintenance problems. and there is more about Matrix which does not make me super enthusiastic. For example : encryption is off by default, and not particular easy for non geeks to work with. XMPP with OMEMO is much easier for geeks and non geeks (Conversations, Gajim, and self-hosting). #matrix #xmpp #OMEMO

@Ajz @rysiek I found XMPP to be an absolute pain back when I tried it, both on server and clientside. I'm quite happy with Matrix. Disroot had scaling problems, there have been a lot of performance increases since (notably the switch to python3), and people should've spread out to other instances way earlier.
Yes, XMPP is a whole lot lighter, but thats because it does much much less.

@foks @rysiek When it is possible to run your own Matrix ID server, then I might consider testing a Matrix server again. Till then everyone is still kind of dependent on their ID server :blobnotlike: Did you try Conversations ? Really easy to use, also for "Joe Sixpack" users. And there is a fork of Conversation to make things even easier. In the past encryption with XMPP was cumbersome and unpleasant with OTR, but with OMEMO (and OpenPGP), and with clients like Gajim and Conversations that support OMEMO, XMPP became fun again.

@Ajz There is but you don't really need an identity server either way. I tried conversations, didn't really like it.

@foks How I try to look at it is that it is about how old and new friends, family, colleagues will deal with joining the chat communication. The Riot app is nice, but joining a Matrix server, and playing around, can be unpleasant and overwhelming imho. e.g. Next day login and get 5 "system" messages "You were kicked from this IRC channel", and 5 "Join requests" for bridges. Can be confusing and not uplifting and easy to deal with for non geeks. Then there is the headache of enabling e2e encryption in a Matrix room. "Please confirm for these 12 devices whether you want to allow e2e". No fun for non geeks. Here's the Conversations fork : Also, installing a Matrix server can be easy. Install Yunohost, and you have it out of the box. #XMPP #matrix #yunohost #conversations

Isn't that a UI issue? Moreover, synapse 1.0 hasn't even been released yet.
Matrix is a protocol, while conversations is a client. That's an improper comparison.
The disroot registrations were discontinued specially due to the higher resource requirements compared to xmpp. Since the database keeps on expanding.
They haven't discontinued the matrix service though because they're not sure if they'll switch back to it in future.
But wasn't xmpp heavy for 00's standards?
@foks @rysiek

@foks @rysiek @Ajz Are any of their native clients stable though? In the sense of "I can have it running in the background w/o it needing 4GB of RAM over time"?

@zge @rysiek @Ajz Yes, and

However, being native doesn't say much about RAM usage tbqh. For me, Riot basically always uses less ram than the native telegram-desktop

@foks @rysiek @Ajz ._. GNOME apps look horrible in non-GNOME environments though. But you're right, still better than telegram or let alone WhatsApp (what I'm dealing with).

@zge @rysiek @Ajz GNOME apps run and look just fine for me, without gnome? Flatpak doesn't want to work, so I can't check Fractal specifically.

Currently just using the Riot redesign branch, and working on my own (web)client in the meantime.

@foks @zge @rysiek Nheko is still mentioned on the Matrix website, but the Github account shows that the project is abandoned or discontinued (Saw it a few weeks ago). There's more clients though. There is actually a nice Matrix client for Ubuntu Touch, with active development.

Which matrix native clients support E2EE atm? Havent touched matrix in some time so dont know.
@rysiek @Ajz

@rysiek ah, same for me. Interestingly even without updating Signal. A pity that you can only create groups on mobile.

Jolla 1? Then I suspect they turned on TLS1.2+ as connection requirements and the Android 4.2 layer doesn't support that.

@schmittlauch ah great point! That is most probably it. Well then I will need to move to Whisperfish. It does seem pretty usable (testing it on a second number).

@schmittlauch but hold on, that does not add up. I can still receive messages just fine. I just can't send them. Wouldn't lack of TLS1.2+ support completely disconnect the client?

@rysiek oops yeah, then you're correct.
I haven't checked whether I can receive messages though.

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