Do you know where I first learned about this trick [trick being TERFs calling non-transphobe feminists Trans Rights Activists]? From people who opposed the gay rights movement. “Gay rights activist” was a phrase I saw bandied about a lot while I was growing up, as though wanting to be able to marry one’s partner instantly transformed a person into some sort of unreasonable lobbyist, while opposing it was just the normal and natural thing to do. Frequently they’d have one gay person who agreed with them to put on a pedestal, the proof that they didn’t actually hate gay people — at least not the ones who’d sit down and shut up and accept whatever scraps they were given.

“Much-banned”? You wrote one of the best-selling books of all time and the best-selling series of all time. You have sold at least one book for every fourteen humans alive and made almost a dozen movie deals. When you tweet, it trends for days and makes national headlines. Your freedom of speech is not at risk here — and if it were, you could probably afford to inscribe whatever you wanted to say on the face of the moon.

‘Parents online were describing a very unusual pattern of transgender-identification where multiple friends and even entire friend groups became transgender-identified at the same time. I would have been remiss had I not considered social contagion and peer influences as potential factors.’

There’s no mystery to be solved here, anyway. Talk to a single queer person (who isn’t isolated due to factors beyond their control) and I’ll bet you they have disproportionately many queer friends. People who are alike tend to clump together, especially if they sense that society at large is uncomfortable with them. All that’s been observed here is that trans teenagers form friend groups, and when one of them comes out, the others feel confident enough to come out as well. And their parents don’t like it, because of a culture that includes essays like this from household names with massive platforms.

lol "queer folk tend befriend queer folk and support each other", who would've thought!

How does someone whose dumb enough to look at this and think it's "contagion" or "peer influence" before entertaining the idea that it's "like people seek out each other's support" and "oppressed folk are also rejected and left alone by society" become a scientist? What is this, Fake Naivete Studies?

Queer kids disproportionately befriend queer kids because fuckwits like teenage-me avoid them or hate them.

IDK if I'll read all of this (it's long, the matter is clear by now, and there's a Sedat-drop to watch comments about) but the following is clear to me.

JK Rowling is rich af. She is a TERF. She is also a bootlicker to aristocrats and politicians. She is a "philantropist", i.e. a rich fuck that believes they are superior to poor wankers and throws money at problems that sound interesting to their superior existence with the expectation that those problems resolve in ways they favour, regardless of whether the outcomes benefit the lowlings they "help".

Philanthropy is a form of exploitation. It's a means to gain power and influence in a combination of ways. Some say it's a way to whitewash one's shitty past, e.g. in case of Gates etc., but no. Maybe a small part of it, but not all. Through philanthropy the rich establish power over the "beneficiaries". They buy direct and indirect influence. They launder money.

Rowling is a rich boot-licking TERF that sees every trans man as a woman lost to "the other side", and every trans woman as the soldier of an invasion force of men into womanhood. She sees the bodies of people, young people esp., as a battleground. Just like the kings and politicians think of their subjects as soldiers or workers that can be sorted into ranks, shaped into a picture, and spent as a resource. Her philanthropy is an investment in her perceived validity and relevance, and in her personal feelings maybe. Like the rest of philanthropy, it isn't about people.

Fuck the bones the rich throw at us. Fuck the rich, as well. Same with TERFs and those of their ilk.

Also fuck anybody with an aristocratic title in their name. Baroness? More like boring ass.

This is incomplete. Philanthropy is not only a means to gain power, but to retain it.

Guess what happens when you get people to depend on philanthropy for their survival or for the realisation of their dreams. You keep them essentially-poor and dependent on you, at least for a duration.

I received student loans. Now I'm controlled by the state, until my payments end. Where did the money I had received go? Huge percentage back to the state in the form of taxes. But I pay back with interest. One receives a scholarship. Where does the money go? Either back to the rich through capitalism, or to the state, through which again back to the rich through state capitalism, tax cuts, and what not. I'm also often bound to avertise them everywhere, and most often work this many years in that company or similar.

Philanthropy is an investment, done with a positive expected ROI whether monetary and/or in the form of physical/intellectual/emotional labour. The power and possibilites we're deprived of is consequently utilised to exploit us through various stock markets, one of whish is the "humanitarian exchange", which is what philanthropy is.


> Philanthropy is not only a means to gain power, but to retain it.

This needs to be sprayed across walls around the world.

@rysiek @cadadr Along with its converse "Charity isn't a substitute for a functioning government"

@sjb @cadadr absolutely!

Also, supporting people via @Liberapay or Flattr or Patreon or such is neither charity nor philanthropy. I feel it's important to make that point.

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@rysiek @cadadr @Liberapay No, those things are actually... close to the ideal of a competitive market economy ;) (The megacorps are far from competitive)

@sjb @rysiek @Liberapay I am totally in love with the idea of people with the means enabling things for those without. I have a budget of max $3-5 for patreon and similar, there are people that have less or none, but when people who can afford more can help according to their ability, we get a situation where everyone can afford the same thing, regardless of their exact means.

@cadadr @rysiek @Liberapay I have LOTS of reasons why I like those systems:

1. Potentially, no influence from advertisers

2. ...and no influence from Google et al.

3. The funding stream matches the requirement of making creative content over an extended period of time, rather than getting into debt and then trying to get it back via an uncertain number of "sales"...

4. ...the "sales" which in turn require DRM and similar to make money, whereas getting the money upfront does not...

@cadadr @rysiek @Liberapay

5. ...and in fact this model implements a "post-scarcity economy" idea in the real world, where once the creative work has been made, everyone can access it.

@aktivismoEstasMiaLuo @rysiek @Liberapay @cadadr I'm always wary of "middle-man" companies. In theory, banks should let you set up a periodic transfer of money, although there are some anonymity issues (for the recipient) and banks themselves might not always be available or even-handed. There's also bitcoin, which I can't believe I'm recommending, but it's another option.

@sjb @rysiek @Liberapay That account is either blocked by me or my instance but what a pile of single minded puritan bullshit, both their toot and the issue they link to.

@sjb @cadadr @Liberapay @rysiek #Liberapay puts some quite untrustworthy entities in the loop who make it more privacy abusing than going direct from bank to bank. LP only gives you anonymity to the recipient (who is usually the only entity you trust with your PII). Cryptocurrency is a great option if you can work out how to actually get some of it privately without #Cloudflare in the loop.

@weirdwriter @sjb @cadadr @rysiek @Liberapay love the idea. not sure how any of these funding channels are _alternatives_ though? Same with liberapay tbh: the shell is Beautiful, but they process the money with the same usual-suspect backend. Are they just prettier channels in a rotten system or what am i missing?
alternative funding system disp…

@setto @weirdwriter @rysiek @Liberapay @sjb I mean what you're missing is there's a world out there and we need to interact with it. Dismissing the payment methods almost entire world uses puts the platform and it's users on both ends at a disadvantage. We wouldn't want to sacrifice the good we do to the sort of purism that will mean it'll inevitably end up stillborn, no?

@cadadr @setto @weirdwriter @rysiek @Liberapay The problem isn't always that there *is* a middleman, it's whether or not they can meddle.

For example: Facebook can reprioritise or censor your posts based on content, but an end-to-end encrypted service cannot.

I wonder exactly how regulated the real bedrock providers like Visa are to preserve customer privacy?

@cadadr @weirdwriter @rysiek @Liberapay @sjb ok, good point. then the following question would be why even be interested in shifting powers? has it really gone so far that we can no longer imagine a different form to communicate executive powers collaboratively? if that quastion is toxic purism, then lets hope the philanthropic fux keep giving!

@setto @weirdwriter @rysiek @Liberapay @sjb It's gone very far.

You seen birds that were hit by a petrol tanker crash, poor little animals covered in thick gooey oil? How they are cleaned and saved? It's meticulous, incremental, difficult, and hurtful, but possible.

We have to clean the petrol off of our feathers. It's a long process and and a dirty process, but in order to be clean, you need to be a little bit less dirty first, and a bit less than that, and later a little bit less that that, and so on. Does it suck, it does, but we have to deal with it, in almost every run of the life.

The concern that these intermediaries can be malevolent, like Stephen says, is valid, but so is the fact that cutting major providers off would cut millions of creators and pledge-givers just because they don't have access to a payment method, just because they reside in the wrong country. I believe that's more injustice than the alternative.

@cadadr @weirdwriter @rysiek @Liberapay @sjb well, i'm all in favour of slow and sweet progress. i just really hope the climate crisis isn't going to show my emergency (i like that term better than "toxic purism") right. Because what matter will digital rémunération for création possibly have in a world without drinking water?

many thanks for enabling this thread everyone! 💜

@cadadr @setto @weirdwriter @rysiek @Liberapay @sjb

The creator of Liberapay actually opened this as an issue because they didn't want to just offer Stripe and Paypal. If people have better alternatives, Liberapay is literally asking you to tell them:

Apparently a big part of the problem is that almost no payment systems offer normal currencies globally, Paypal and Stripe are AFAIK the only two?

Most alternatives are only available in certain regions.

@FediFollows @cadadr @setto @weirdwriter @rysiek @Liberapay @sjb For payment processors, Taler is a good system; it ensures that payees can be audited while payers are private, without any blockchain BS.

@setto @cadadr @FediFollows @rysiek @Liberapay @sjb I will make a comment on there soon. I also wanted to share this open source payment gateway. I’m not sure if any of you are developers, but maybe you know someone that can get some use out of an open source alternative

@weirdwriter @setto @cadadr @FediFollows @rysiek @Liberapay @sjb

Great. I added Comradery for inclusion to curated list.

I couldn't find source at UniPay, btw. If anyone has more funding-related resources, please add them to the issue. I am a bit behind in maintaining the list, but every entry I encounter, I record.

Delightful project is for FOSS, Open Data and Open Science related resources.

@humanetech @weirdwriter @setto @FediFollows @rysiek @Liberapay @sjb Great list. IMO it's important that projects / creators use multiple of these anyways, both to allow users options, and to diversify for their own income security in case of service closure / downtime / hacking.

@cadadr @weirdwriter @setto @FediFollows @rysiek @Liberapay @sjb

I agree. Maybe even more pressing is the need for open standards, like the payto: URI scheme @alcinnz tooted in this thread.

Network effects play a big role here. Most people looking for funding choose the unicorn services since they have highest 'yield'. Signing up as donator to a small platform is (too?) high friction.

@cadadr @weirdwriter @setto @FediFollows @rysiek @Liberapay @sjb @alcinnz

May be interesting to brainstorm how this would look like as native to the

We had a use case already on with PonyUPS, sort of community-based Micropayment:

Other use case may be a Federated OpenCollective-like service. Instances that provide own Collective or multiple instances sharing them. They might integrate with multiple non-federated donation platforms as aggregators.

@cadadr @weirdwriter @setto @FediFollows @rysiek @Liberapay @sjb @alcinnz

If any of you are interested I invite you to join community. We have the Fediverse Futures category to ideate on these things. Or brainstorm on at

We may get a forum section for Domain-specific interest groups:

Recently a bunch of Hospitality Exchange projects started to evaluate support to join the and standardize interop stuff.

@cadadr @weirdwriter @setto @FediFollows @rysiek @Liberapay @sjb @alcinnz

I created a post at SocialHub with reference to this discussion in the thread about organizing Domain-specific Interest Groups.

Have called this one Open Funding, and described briefly some first ideas how it may look like.

Also added Micropayment as another different domain, where e.g. @cwebber with Hyptis has great plans.



Your chart is ready, and can be found here:

Things may have changed since I started compiling that, and some things may have been inaccessible.

The chart will eventually be deleted, so if you'd like to keep it, make sure you download a copy.

@humanetech @weirdwriter @setto @cadadr @FediFollows @rysiek @Liberapay @sjb Great list, but I had to suggest an addition there.

I'm excited that the IETF has standardized payto: URIs! So is GNU Taler! They'll work in my browser engines, provided you've got a banking app installed.

@alcinnz @weirdwriter @setto @cadadr @FediFollows @rysiek @Liberapay @sjb

Oh wow, thanks. That is delightful. The other day I tooted about Stripe with their Payment Links where I did not see mention of this.

Either they'll ignore this draft, maybe even when it becomes standard and adopted, or they intend to have such a market position at that time to be top dominator (hiding stuff deep in a SDK or something).

@humanetech I definitely hope Stripe at least adds support for payto: as a payment source. Going beyond that might be on the banks... Or cryptocurrency...

@weirdwriter @setto @cadadr @FediFollows @rysiek @Liberapay @sjb

@humanetech Heads up: “ethical ads” supports AdblockPlus’s “acceptable ads” which finds tracking (a la Google, Facebook, etc.) acceptable. There’s nothing ethical about that. (Saw it on your list.)

@aral thanks for that. I already had my doubts on the entire category. Just removed it from the list.

Still thinking of a good way to format the README. My thinking was to give the best options a prominent table-like description, and just briefly mention other entries.

Something like Paypal - often used - has no place on the list, but may consider including popular options e.g. Patreon. Then it is up to the individual where they feel comfortable.

@humanetech Thanks. And yeah, perhaps categories? (Mainstream — “these aren’t ideal but you may have to use them”… Stopgaps – “not perfect but better than the mainstream” … Alternatives – “ethical alternatives” … Keep an eye on – “may not be ready for use for promising” etc.)

@aral yes, that is a good idea, something like that and then with traffic light colors (e.g. orange --> blue --> green).

Added a comment to the formatting issue:

Thanks 😃

@humanetech Neat. I’d only say if you’re going to use traffic colours, use the actual ones and also make sure you’re differentiating by more than just colour (for the sake of accessibility) ;)


Yeah, chose these colors because red doesn't make too much sense. Communicates "don't use" so why would I add them :)

For sure will have text with the colors, for accessibility. Thanks!

@cadadr @setto @weirdwriter @rysiek @Liberapay @sjb Ye might be missing the simple fact that it's essentially illegal to process money unless you use the "usual channels" nowadays. Using other methods is "money laundering". You have to "know your customer" (KYC, it's even an acronym). Privacy is crime.
But of course, bitcoin is fine, because the wealthy use that to launder their money and rip off the poor. And anonymous tax haven accounts are ok too, for the same reason.
Liberapay can't offer some speculative system for money transfer, they would end up in prison.

@seachaint @setto @weirdwriter @rysiek @Liberapay @sjb Yeah. Essentially, setto is right, they don't say nothing that's essentially wrong. It's just that, it's a terrible stereotypical "when life gives you lemons" situation, we sadly don't have the luxury of being too picky with our tools most of the time.

@cadadr @seachaint @weirdwriter @rysiek @Liberapay @sjb it might be stereoptypical, but we also do have the luxury to own bank accounts, credit cards and (pocket)computers. Even so the opporunity to try make a living from digital creations. This puts us in the best and most privileged spot to oppose the ways executive power is communicated today: on the terms of the ruling fux. To make art/culture and asking the banks to fuck off is a dirty job, but someone has to do it.
i believe those who are able to articulate these concepts as we do currently in this thread most certainly have this luxury. And in the face of the global despair, this luxury becomes a responsability. If not immediately, we need to work towards betterment through the power of our imagination and collaboration. I deeply respect intiatives like @Liberapay they are a step towards a different direction. But they can't protect us from the way money is tethering evil with it's roots. Maybe the alternative patreon services wont shut us creators down, but masterexpress-diners-pal may shut the services down. Because so far all the alternative patreon services can offer is a good intentioned shell. And the only way i know to strengthen these shells and root them in the ground, is to question them.

I'm thankful i was pulled into this exchange. It ignited an old flame i've been neglecting lately. Another realm is possible, and helping eachother envision it is the only way i know to get there.

@seachaint @weirdwriter @rysiek @Liberapay @sjb

@seachaint @cadadr @setto @weirdwriter @rysiek @Liberapay
I guess I'd want to distinguish between these two things:

1. Authorities knowing where money transfers are going to combat financial crime;

2. Patreon kicking a creator off their platform because they don't like what they're making.

These could both be called "meddling" but one is higher up the stack than the other.

@seachaint @cadadr @setto @weirdwriter @rysiek @Liberapay @sjb or they could choose to KYC and then be able to legally use Bitcoin, et al.

@LovesTha @cadadr @setto @weirdwriter @rysiek @Liberapay @sjb Yea.. IMO screw bitcoin and other ecocidal ancap systems, though.
However, Faircoin would get a "maybe" from me, inasmuch as it's basically a bunch of anarchists completely thumbing their noses at the financial system while generally letting their names be known. Trouble is, if they actually got traction they could end up in trouble, and perhaps anyone attached to them could get in trouble, too.

@setto @weirdwriter @rysiek @Liberapay @sjb @cadadr while there is little option to corporate and gov control and surveillance of every cent moved by not rich or corporate, this new co-op thing meets and votes on discord and google forms. these are thing you actually HAVE strong more ethical alternatives to. Doesnt feel that different. Just making a nice honeypot to serve subpeonas on the "rabble"

@setto @weirdwriter @rysiek @Liberapay @sjb @cadadr Unless you cant to send cash via mail or hand it to the creator then I doubt you'll be able to bypass the need to use a credit card.

@weirdwriter @sjb @cadadr @rysiek @Liberapay Thank you for introducing me to Comradey; I'll be sure to share it with some others.
@rysiek @Liberapay @sjb @cadadr The main issue with this is that the people with means can decide which of the people without means are worth of help and which aren't.

It isn't that bad at the patreon/liberapay level, because there are a lot of small payments, and thus the influence of each single user sort-of-disappears, and in general I think it is an useful model, just not a mean of redistributing wealth.

Contrast this with the gates foundation being able to decide that malaria is worth curing and dysentery isn't as cool and can be ignored: that is actively dangerous.
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