Wow, I get really frustrated when I see FOSS communities falling for Microsoft's "pro open source" PR spin - note, they never say anything positive about Copyleft (the "F" in #FOSS). They are no friends of FOSS - they're a parasite. Microsoft loves OSS like a tapeworm loves a healthy digestive system - exploiting what others produce for their own (proprietary) self-interest.

@lightweight MsPL has a clause added specifically and only to make it incompatible with the GPL and related licenses.

When I was doing FLOSS activism back in the day, I had a meeting with some "FLOSS Evangelist" from Microsoft, they were pushing hard the bullcrap of "FLOSS-friendly" MS. So when they asked what can they do to make the FLOSS community trust them more, I said "remove that clause".

The guy got *actually* offended. How dare I suggest such a thing?!

@rysiek yes, Microsoft have drilled their "OSS" "advocates" well. I don't think most of them are particularly idealistic (those who are, are hopelessly naïve). They're mercenary. Betraying their community for a high salary funded by proprietary exploitation and monopoly rents.

@rysiek @lightweight The only reason that Microsoft are doing anything with FOSS is to extract value and reduce its operating costs. If they can persuade people to use and develop for Azure based infrastructure then this is their main goal. Assume that anything coming from a Microsoft FOSS evangelist is a cynical self-serving scheme intended to get you to do free work for them. They might throw a few crumbs to a few devs to make it look as if they have goodwill.

If Microsoft BS was the only problem we had then things would be far easier. In the last decade thing have gotten a lot worse.

@bob @rysiek @lightweight Microsoft has learnt the hard way you cannot compete with the community. Then it figured 'embrace and extend' still applies.

@hubert @bob @rysiek The best thing (from MSFT's perspective) is to make #FOSS communities dependent on their patronage (which, of course, is entirely subject to their capricious self-interest).

@lightweight @hubert @bob which is exactly what was happening when I was moving on from being a full-time FLOSS activist in Poland.

Microsoft would sponsor all FLOSS events in the country, and a lot of FLOSS infra would be run on Azure.

🤦‍♀️

@rysiek @lightweight @hubert @bob It's also similar with Google. There are not many FOSS-related conferences and organizations not sponsored by Google. This makes it exceedingly difficult to critique anything that Google is doing or to advocate for things which are not in Google's business interests.

@bob @rysiek @hubert yup. Unfortunately, the #FOSS community needs to shun corporates, generally. Their entire structure is incompatible with sustainable FOSS. They exist to exploit and siphon off the Commons for the few. It's their nature.

@lightweight @bob @rysiek @hubert there are exceptions. Some companies try very hard to be good citizens in the respective communities/ecosystems.

@lenzgr @rysiek @lightweight @bob @hubert There is an important distinction here between corporations and other companies and possibly between public and private corporations.

@lenzgr @bob @rysiek @hubert I agree that there are some companies - privately held, usually, who are very principle (as opposed to principal)-led... but I take a dim view of the entire *publicly listed corporate* model. I explain it in more detail here: davelane.nz/megacorps I see all of those - by their very nature - to be in a race to the ethical bottom.

@lenzgr @bob @rysiek @hubert and, of course, problems can arise even for a principled private company when it's acquired by a publicly listed corporation, as often happens. I've seen some heartbreaking changes happen in that scenario.

@bob @rysiek @hubert the deprecation of "Do no evil" seems to indicate that even Google couldn't keep up the pretence any longer. Credulity was stretched to breaking.

@rysiek @lightweight @hubert Companies founded on thievery just adopting trends?! Say it isn’t so… -_-

@rysiek @lightweight @hubert @bob Talking about Microsoft sponsering conferences, I saw something that struck me as weird.

They bought a prime spot at a regional conference I attended, but stayed conspiculously absent. You walked into the conference & saw their blank unstaffed stall.

@alcinnz @rysiek @hubert @bob they probably want to be able to contradict people who say "Microsoft always dominates conferences they sponsor".

@lightweight @alcinnz @hubert @bob nah, Hanlon's Razor applies. Somebody didn't get the memo, somebody dropped the ball.

@rysiek or they walked away from the additional cost of building out and staffing the thing

@lightweight @alcinnz @hubert @bob

@lightweight @alcinnz @rysiek @hubert @bob microsoft dominating FOSS by donations is not the worst, it worked so well, that people does copy the concept, WHO?...

It was a joke, it is not a copy if it is the same people doing the same trick.

Not a lawyer here so could you point which cause it is Rysiek? https://opensource.org/licenses/MS-PL

Is this the one about logo and trademarks?

Thanks!

@wiktor as far as I remember (it was a while ago), 3.D. was the problem:

> (D) If you distribute any portion of the software in source code form, you may do so only under this license by including a complete copy of this license with your distribution. If you distribute any portion of the software in compiled or object code form, you may only do so under a license that complies with this license.

The "only" arguably makes it impossible to dual-license.

But IANAL, and might misremember.

The “only” arguably makes it impossible to dual-license.

Hmm, yeah it seems so although if one used MsPL they probably are not interested in dual-licensing (because it just came from MS) and changing the license of a project that we don’t have copyright is not allowed in general. Say we distribute Sequoia under GPL and someone says “well I can’t dual-license it under Apache!”. D'oh!

Thanks for the point Rysiek, see you later!

@wiktor yup. This was almost 10 years ago and I was way deeper into the woods of legal intricacies around copyright and FLOSS licensing back then.

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