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controversial technology opinion 

I seem to be in the minority here but a web page should be able to load its content without needing JavaScript. If your page only loads an empty wireframe without JavaScript, you’ve failed at the web. Bare minimum, load the fucking content. If it’s being pulled dynamically, do that server side and then generate a damn page.

controversial technology opinion 

@sanspoint Why stop there? Have the server render a raw bitmap and poke it directly into your framebuffer.

Or your eyes if framebuffers are too 1960s+ for you.

controversial technology opinion 

@sanspoint so many websites just fail to load with js blocked, let alone third party assets. it's embarrassing. you had one job, webshits

controversial technology opinion (but the other side) 

@sanspoint I do morally agree with this statement. This is what it _should_ be.

But let's be honest, fetching something dynamically with JS is just SO much easier than building a backend.

controversial technology opinion (but the other side) 

@sanspoint In a recent project I made a dictionary for two languages. You can search and it just searches fulltext in all entries (it's not huge) and displays all matching ones.

Yeah, I could've build a backend which serves static sites, but then I'd a) have to loose typing suggestions and b) have to build two components.

Using JS allowed me to keep within the HTML/CSS/JS landscape and to just serve static content on the backend.

controversial technology opinion (but the other side) 

@tobtobxx @sanspoint

I see your point. You could also provide suggestions for similar searches in the rendered page.

controversial technology opinion 

@sanspoint I totally agree. That's why my website doesn't have any Javascript right now. And if it ever does, it won't be intrusive.

re: controversial technology opinion 

@sanspoint not controversial at all imho, it's how should be done.
Don't like the f-bomb but otherwise totally agree with you.

controversial technology opinion 

I agree on that for personal sites. I don't understand how some people's blogs can take few good seconds to download "Complete Work of Willam Shekaspeare" twice so that it can smoothly slide in few paragraphs of text. Funny thing is that, such load on server can get unbareble to a point that site owner feels the need of putting CloudFlare in between to stop bots.

@sanspoint

controversial technology opinion 

A news site shouldn't need client side rendering at all IMHO.

That being said, some programs that need constant updating may need to use JS for dynamically updating constantly. Take Mastodon as an example. An instance with 1000 users would crash constantly of it had to do server side rendering whenever a new toot was posted. Ability to offload that load onto client side is a blessing in disguise.
@sanspoint

controversial technology opinion 

@sanspoint
Well, is it okay if I provide an alternative that works without JavaScript (example: beta.doggos.kescher.at gives a link to an old version that works without JS)?

controversial technology opinion 

@sanspoint Controversial? This is a rocking opinion.

controversial technology opinion 

@sanspoint Doesn't sound very controversial. At least tell people to "enable javascript to see the site". At least! But many sites don't even do that. Of course, that's just the bare minimum. Noscript tag exists, no reason not to have an alternate version for JS-free browsers.

controversial technology opinion 

@sanspoint I totally agree. Let’s hear it for progressive enhancement!

controversial technology opinion 

@sanspoint My friend @emma has a theory that React is effectively a subsidy for expensive phone manufacturers at the expense of the common good, and it's hard to disagree.

controversial technology opinion 

@sanspoint

That's like saying "a program should be only one page".

I've seen plenty of web pages which had _gratuitous_ dependency on running JS. But I have seen--and (full disclosure) written--web apps which really do benefit from the dynamics of a programming language.

The latter would _not_ be improved by being reorganized to "load the f*cking content". They're inherently dynamic and interactive.

controversial technology opinion 

@sanspoint Yes yes yes yes.
Tired of loading 20MB of webshit scripts just to read a shitty corp landing page!

controversial technology opinion 

@sanspoint
i hate (how they use) css more nowadays and I tend to use tricks to strip or alter css to make pages readable again.

controversial technology opinion 

@sanspoint

I partly agree ... I mean there is no need to load the Javascript, the Style Sheet and the content seperately as is done now ... all three can load at the same time (and only these pages are able to be conserved in the Internet Archives as they are)

controversial technology opinion 

@sanspoint

My French exercices still work from the Internet Archives ...

I'm doing everything in DHTML (HTLM 4.01 transitional + Javascript 1.1)

This wouldn"t be possible when a server would intervene ...

web.archive.org/web/2014032316

controversial technology opinion 

@sanspoint I'd like to imagine that having some HTML support for

1) automatically pulling updated content without reloading the page and
2) submitting data without reloading the page

would cover maybe 80% of the use cases that legitimately require JavaScript nowadays.

controversial technology opinion 

@sanspoint
Try loading a JS-only page in #Lynx browser....

@sanspoint

Accessibility: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

controversial technology opinion 

@sanspoint I for one think the best kind of web page are the one loading an empty frame when JavaScript is on.

heydonworks.com/

controversial technology opinion 

@sanspoint well, while I mostly agree, it really depends on the kind of website. Static sites with no real server side components are easier and cheaper to maintain and deploy. And again depending on the site, that may require using client side JS to communicate with an API of some sort.

controversial technology opinion 

@sanspoint There is worse : the page which detects that you have JS disabled, then redirects you to another page, so that if you activate JS and reload, you do not get the page you wanted.

controversial technology opinion 

@sanspoint see also Maciej Ceglowski's presentations from before he pivoted to political fundraising idlewords.com/talks/website_ob

@sanspoint you may be in the minority, but you're definitely not alone.
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