@stman I understand. I was boosting @zig post for visibility since I think it's important to hear different angles on the topic.

yes, we need a decentralized economic system to support the decentralized information system development and stewardship. to the extent possible, these should be designed together.

I sent you a DM earlier about definitions. Lemme know and we can iterate on some things.

Peace!

/cc @emsenn

@stman @theruran @emsenn

Hello,

I introduce to you @mouloud who he is more aware of philosophical implication and sometime technical details of the actual the (sort of) system we have been working on.

I forward a very **serious** question from him, since the convo was not federated on his instance yet:

What is the point of money or crypto-money?

@zig @stman @theruran @emsenn

My question is indeed what is the point of money whether it is crypto or not. I know a little about bitcoin (proof-of-work: evil for climate so far) and Ethereum (algorithmic contracts, good idea as far as I understand, but still PoW).

The idea of a single source of thruth is neat, and would be useful to avoid lies or fakes in a distributed system.

@zig @stman @theruran @emsenn

Money used to be used a means of exchange something of value for the rich that is gold. That by itself shows how dubious money seems, because gold is almost useless in practice. Nowadays, money has mostly only virtual value, because people trust the system, and the people in power somewhat trust each other and they agree through the market on exchange rates.

@zig @stman @theruran @emsenn

Anyway, take of instance "carbon budget" of countries, it can be exchanged for money. And they that "carbon budget" can be used to produce new products.

With the money, a low carbon footprint country can bargain to buy some products.

During this exchange the low carbon footprint might have lost value because conditions of the exchanges and the dubbed added value to the products.

@zig @stman @theruran @emsenn

It is far fetched, but to me their should be no money, hence probably no crypto-money.

A single-source of truth is helpful, but I am not convinced it is necessary, and is certainly not necessary in a fully cooperative system with no evil.

Thanks including me in the convo.

@stman @zig @theruran

I agree with what you write.

Where does the code happen?

@stman @mouloud @zig Thanks for the discussion. I enjoyed reading so far!

Yes, and about code - that is the kind of knee-jerk reaction that people have nowadays and it prevents everyone else from understanding what they are doing. Documentation of every kind is key, unlike the prevailing software engineering practices that lack rigorous conceptual design development phase. Visual documentation is also of course important, and to maximize the utility it must also be an executable architecture model.

Well - if we can theorize another way of achieving an equivalent security model and utility to Bitcoin without the energy consumption, that would be incredible. As far as I know, there is no alternative yet conceived and the energy consumption keeps the system honest. And unfortunately, no one I have met in the fediverse thus far is qualified to theorize such an alternative. There are real engineering constraints and trade-offs that are glossed over in these kinds of discussion, and I doubt that billions of transactions per second is achievable due to laws of physics. It is my expectation that such a decentralized and trustworthy cybersystem will be slower in many ways but is nevertheless fast enough for us to get real work done and not just mindlessly consume Big Media.

P.S. come to hackers.town - we got 10,000-character toots!

@stman Time Sensitive Networks with timestamped everything sounds like great way to approach this problem :blob_gnikniht: @mouloud @zig

@stman @mouloud @zig a trustworthy distributed time server will be important when solar storm activity picks up and our GPS goes out for extended periods; and in scenarios when that GPS infrastructure rots due to lack of funding and the satellites fall out of the sky.

@stman The closest thing to this that I know of is Google Spanner which uses GPS and atomic (hardware) clocks to ensure global synchronicity. Its FOSS equivalent is CockroachDB which only emulates this functionality through the system clock synchronized by NTP. @mouloud @zig

@stman @theruran @zig

I agree that CPUs (about which I am clueless so far) might and certainly are geared toward some particular use, that do not always intersect the interests of the commons. And more generally, available tools are nurturing a particular social system of domination.

@stman @theruran @zig

What I want to write has two sides a) I believe there is a slow, smooth path toward libertarian socialism. Stronger claim, it is the only viable path. I believe a brutal change is not possible. Feeding the "revolution" meme as in the french revolution of 1789 is counter productive. If anything like that would happen, that is again the people sitting at the first row that will be taking advantage of it like bourgeoisie has taken advantage of french revolution.

@stman @theruran @zig

b) I agree there is a need to THINK about the new system but also the think about path toward that system. It is necessary to DOCUMENT and prove, if not necessary, at least that there is sufficient alternatives. And toward that goal, I am confident that one can not just reboot the system with a new operating system. That is, one need an upgrade path, and step by step hotfix, and swap existing cyber infrastructures with better ones.

@stman @theruran @zig

The upgrade path I am thinking about is similar to the one that happened with Linux: at the beginning is was toy, then it was sufficient, now it necessary.

@stman @theruran @zig

I might be wrong, but I consider code to be XXI literacy. We can live without code and go back to caves or something. But if we want to human science, say medicine, to progress with need computers and code.

In other words, yes you can try to convince people with free-form text, and think about new socioeconomical systems. But eventually, people will go back to their usual routine business as usual privative tools.

@stman @theruran @zig

I think one need to both document and code alternatives software that gives a cyber body to alternatives socioeconomic systems.

There was much work that has been done, but there is more that remains to be done.

@stman @theruran @zig

Toward that goal I have been working on alternative "operating system" that is supported by a DHT.

It will allow to not only copy but also improve the user experience of the www.

So far my work has been concerned about offering better alternatives to mastodon, mediawiki and to some extent google search engine.

I have not touched yet, other aspects like factories, production chains, logistic and many others...

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@xj9 @zig @theruran @mouloud But this is not even the main issue. The main issue is that its hardware and microprocessors and integrated architectures are fixed, imposed, and this is greatly limiting what can be build with these legos and on top of them at software architecture level in a way you seem to have no idea. You are being forced to perceive code as solething exclusively running on a centralized turing machine.

@stman

My understanding is you effort is several decade away, what about the factories that would produce those new computers? Do you size the production line? How? Create you own how?

@xj9 @zig @theruran

@stman @xj9 @zig @theruran if there DGSE and DGSI use the same tool at the startup nation they are several years behind me.

@stman @xj9 @zig @theruran

Maybe I pretentious. But real thing is software used in startups is crap.

@stman @xj9 @zig @theruran

I remind you that NONE of the recent catastrophic computer related events were predicate by movies, gamergate comes to mind.

What things that the CIA or whatever might be supporting is mass diffusion of hollywood production.

Ransomware no predicated.

This is a divide and conquer strategy to inspire FUD about the computers geeks and hackitivist.

Still I will watch the movie.

@stman @xj9 @zig @theruran

Case in point, I have an idea for a language where the code is content addressed and can take many syntax or use many natural language.

I agree collectively we can come up with better solution because we have a bigger picture.

Tho, we can not live only in the cyberspace. To run the anarchy simulation we need data from the real world, and the opendata resolution was not applied in most contries.

@stman @xj9 @zig @theruran

I learn more from quotes (even out of context) than from movies. Movies are a diversion, those are useful to keep people with low ethics comfortable, and other contained because FUD. So there as useful to have common grounds to discuss with people not aware of what happens for the real in the cyber space.

@stman

I will need to watch the movie. I do not think any gov has the computer power to harness the full data stream of the internet. Of course mastodon is a honeypot for those people. But what case can they build against us? For my part, that I try to build software to simulate a better world? That is not a terrorist attack that is independent research.

@xj9 @zig @theruran

@stman @xj9 @zig @theruran

Not necessarly maintaining the status quo but also defiying people believing they almighty in they so called thech, where those are merely algorithm.

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