@tbernard all of this start to look pretty damn good πŸ‘€πŸ‘€

@tbernard I wonder how this will work on multi monitor setups, because I can't really imagine it working well.

@tbernard Currently I have an overview on all my 4 screens and multi-desktop disabled as it just takes space and isn't used.
How would that overview work on multi monitor setups and how would it look with multi-desktop disabled.

@Alexmitter I have a hard time imagining that, but it should be no different from the current one really, except that workspaces are horizontal + some visuals. But if you don't use workspaces it's basically the same.

@tbernard Then I look forward to it. The design is really cool not gonna lie. The only last confusing thing left is that I though the dash would be removed in the near future, but it looks like it rather got a more prominent spot.

@Alexmitter That was considered, but in the end it wasn't worth the trouble.

@tbernard Its a good decision in my own humble opinion. Then I am more hyped for Gnome 40 then before, this gonna be a awesome release :)

@tbernard OK, first things first, AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Second, this is only intended for desktop and tablet, right? Any scheduling for further convergence in future versions?

@xerz No concrete plans for phone support at this point, but it's definitely a first step in that direction since it unlocks some of the things necessary for that (e.g. spatial model and gestures)

@tbernard Oh, and actually, something I noticed. My current use case with GNOME is simple: I have a trackball, and the Top Panel Workspace Scroll extension. If I want to change workspaces, I just have to move my ball up and scroll. With this new desktop, such a workflow is broken in favor of touchpad gestures.

Could a middle ground be reached, e.g. enabling a vertical axis option?

@xerz I'm not sure i follow. Why would that extension not work in this case?

@tbernard the extension could still work, the issue is more that it completely breaks the vertical scroll metaphor and it can mess with muscle memory

@xerz @tbernard I definitely think a vertical layout mode should be available

I'd even say it should be the default, both to ease the transition for existing users, and also just because the UI of a desktop also plays some part in the identity of the OS/DE as a whole (think about how iconic Windows's taskbar and start menu and macOS's panel+dock combination are)

so keeping things similar over time and making sure not to change things too drastically over the long term is a good idea, I think

@xerz @tbernard one thing I also like about the vertical layout in general is the fact that there's more space on the horizontal axis than the vertical axis on most monitors, so it makes better use of space to have things laid out in columns rather than rows (unless you have a heck load of favorited apps, of course :blobderpy:)

@tromino @xerz Read the article (and previous articles of the series) more closely ;)

There's no way to do vertical workspaces and get the kind of nice spatial model we have here, because the vertical axis can't be used for going to the overview in that case.

@tbernard @xerz wouldn't it work fine if everything else was shifted along with it? (basically, how the layout is now)

@tromino @xerz I don't follow, but trust me, we've thought through many many different permutations for this, and on the whole the advantages of a horizontal layout far outweigh the downsides.

@tbernard @xerz I just think most of the things you mentioned in the article if the axes were changed to more closely reflect the way things are in the current shell (with workspaces being vertical and the app grid using horizontal movement, and having favorites on the side to match)

but if that workflow doesn't fit well with the new design, then I'm curious about what the reasons are on why that is (I couldn't find anything specific in the original article)

@tbernard @xerz because you're saying that the horizontal layout has more advantages over the vertical layout, but to me, the opposite seems true in a lot of ways

@tbernard @xerz other than that, regarding the look and feel of the design itself, I'm wondering if having a blurred and dimmed version of the current wallpaper behind everything would make things look more lively (or if having that along with the backgrounds in each workspace display would be weird)

@tbernard @xerz though I guess the blurred wallpaper idea might not work as well with the planned tablet designs, so...

@tbernard @xerz yet another advantage of the vertical workspace design is it makes things less weird with multiple monitors (as most multi-monitor setups are layed out horizontally, flipping up and down on a single monitor makes more sense metaphorically)

@tbernard @xerz is there anything I can do to change your minds on this? what do I do?

@tromino @xerz I don't think Mastodon is the place to discuss this in detail, I'd suggest coming to gnome-design for that.

That said, I don't think this aspect of the design is going to change, because we'd lose some of the main advantages of the new layout (spatial model and gestures).

FYI there are more blog posts coming, with more detail on the process and thinking behind the layout.

@tbernard @tromino Are there specific blockers preventing from providing both options? How is it implemented in GNOME Shell?

@xerz Happy to elaborate on gnome-design on Matrix, this isn't great for longer discussions.

@tbernard @tromino and that applies on touchpad and keyboard... but most mice don't have smooth horizontal scrolling, yet currently using the mouse is the fastest method I have in hand :blobcatthink:​

@tbernard Question: Will the dash continue to behave as it does today? Or is there a plan to only show the favorite apps? I found out that there were some interested in stop showing running apps in the dash

Beyond that... It really looks too cool everything 😍

@nahuelwexd I think that's still up in the air. There's good points to be made for either, and I don't think there's been a clear decision yet.

@tbernard I'm not sure about the favorites section being on the bottom, since it means more mouse movement from the Activities button/hot corner to the apps...

the design seems interesting though! (although the grey background seems a bit plain)

@tromino It's a definitely a tradeoff, and something we're interested in improving upon in future iterations.

That said, having used a prototype for a while I've not had any problems with this in practice, and it didn't come up as an issue in our research.

Also, if you launch the overview via anything other than the hot corner (e.g. super key or gesture), the dash is actually closer to where your pointer is likely to be (the center of the screen).

@tbernard nice 😍

What I don't see here how empty states would become more useful. Is this something still in discussion or am I missing it?

@ju The change there is that we're showing the overview on boot, so you get favorites and search right away.

@tbernard
I drag windows from/to workspace previews all the time and now these are gone. πŸ˜•

@afranke That's still possible, the workspaces zoom out when you drag a window, so you can see them all/drop windows on them. And of course, the small multiples are available in the app grid as well.

@tbernard That looks pretty much like Phosh on the PinePhone.I really like it on mobile but I don't think it's a productive way of working on a desktop computer.I prefer the widely used concept with a task bar at the bottom and a start menu on the left side here.

@tbernard Is #GNOME Shell really giving up on the virtual screens arranged vertically?

Hmm... I might consider coming back! :troll:

@codewiz @tbernard

I'm used to the vertically arranged virtual workspace. I'm going to give it a shot, but I don't really see why they should change it.

@yookoala @tbernard To piss off those who could get used to it? πŸ˜‚

Seriously, pretty much ever other OS arranged the virtual screens horizontally, or in a square grid. It's easier to acquire new users if you don't arbitrarily break established conventions.

@codewiz @tbernard

AFAIK, only a handful of Windows users know of the virtual deskop (workspace) feature. IMO, the mac one is not as user friendly as the one in GNOME. I don't think the convention matter at this point.

Again, I am going to try to adapt the new UX. But it's quite annoying to have to change every 10 years (given GNOME Shell was first released April, 2011).

@codewiz @tbernard

As a point of reference, macos 10 to macos 11 is far less drastic. Even Windows XP -> Vista -> 7 -> 8 -> 10 don't change the desktop experience as much as GNOME 2 -> 3 -> 40.

@yookoala @tbernard Well, Windows Vista tried to achieve the "wow" effect... but users hated it.

Then Microsoft tried to make Metro the default UI for Windows 10, but users also hated it and they had to roll back most of their extravagant changes until it looks again like a regular Windows desktop with an oversized Start menu.

The difference with #GNOME is that Microsoft actually listens to user feedback :troll:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metro_(d

@codewiz @tbernard

I wish GNOME is more user-centric than user-experience-design-centric. Some stability is good. Especially for guy like me, who is not getting younger.

I adore the people with courage to make bold changes. I"d just like them to think of the everyday life experience of their end users. Includes having to relearn their desktop habits.

@yookoala @tbernard Yeah, muscle memory is hard to form and hard to lose.

I sympathize because I'm one of those who could not get used to all the UI changes in #GNOME 3 and ended up switching to Unity for a few years, and then #KDE.

@yookoala @tbernard Ah, forgot: I've also been using Cinnamon for a few years at work because KDE was too outdated on Debian.

@codewiz @tbernard

It took me quite a while to get used to the GNOME 2 to 3 change. I get why they'd want to change it eventually. But the process is no fun at all.

Again, I see the rationale behind the GNOME40 redesign. I just don't want to learn it this time only to have to unlearn in 2031.

@tbernard ElementaryOS had a screen that loooked similar but the workspaces were small boxes in a horizontal row. You dragged app icons from each box -- it worked pretty efficiently

@tbernard fucking hell, that looks good. Perhaps when someone gets prop. NVIDIA working on Wayland, I'll consider GNOME again ;-)

GNOME + Xorg's memory usage is just unwieldy IME. I've seen *much* better results with GNOME + WL, however.

P.S. PackageKit takes up around 2GB of RAM idle unless I disable it.

@tbernard This demo is slow to show how it will work so we can see or just slow? I mean those animations take forever.

@nesc Yeah, I slowed slowed down the animations 3x for the video IIRC, to show the spatial model more clearly.

Also, this is a web mockup rather than actual code, so the animation choreography is kinda low fidelty to begin with.

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