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I think needs more noobs, and I think we need to treat them better, here's why:
youtu.be/2qx6Hly33_E

@thelinuxEXP As a Linux noob myself, I appreciate this a lot. Keep spreading the good vibes 🤩

@thelinuxEXP I don't think it, and it doesn't mean anything. I think that people that expect to use their computers as any other consummer product should be stuck with M$, Apple and Google.
@daniel01 @thelinuxEXP What exactly do you disagree with?

Most people want to just use their computers for things they need to do. Anyone who isn't computer enthusiast should steer clear of FOSS?
@daniel01 @alex @thelinuxEXP I didn't notice the yt link however I couldn't afford it more than 30 sec... Totally in disagree. You can explain whatever thing you want but if people expect to find a consumer product, I reiterate again, better leave them on a consumer OS.

Linux is not special, what makes Linux special is GNU and the free software philosophy; as a matter a fact when you rip off GNU from Linux then you have Android and ChromeOS anything more far from privacy and free software almost doesn't exist.

@daniel01 @alex Well, I totally disagree with that opinion. Linux needs users, IMO, to thrive and reinforce its open source model. A system can't only rely on having developers.

@daniel01 @alex @thelinuxEXP I didn't say that new user are not welcome, I said that people that feel comfortable to handle their computer/OS as a consumer product do not have reason to use Linux.

What is valid for Linux today was valid also twenty years ago, that 1% of user Linux Desktop is the natural percentage of people that do not consider their OS a consumer product and like dirt their hands.

Trying to create selling point to convince people with argument like privacy conscious or security focused is misleading because create false statement like...

Linux is not privacy conscious, as a matter fact Google and Facebook that are heavily involved on the Linux kernel couldn't care less about your privacy. Privacy mostly depend by the fact that the majority of GNU is or was made by volunteers rather than corporations and there is any commercial interest on it hence there is not reason to spy or track the users. However when distros are handled or sponsored by corporation the temptation to track or spy on the user is irresistible, and almost any corps misstep in it like the dash search of Ubuntu Unity with Amazon...

Security focused is not the reason why the Linux kernel was created in first place as well as the GNU operating system, but it is a consequence of the open source model. This is something that ESR pointed out in his book and widely shared more eyes on the code more bugs and issues found and fixed.

I don't really see the connection between new comers and the future of Linux. Being polite and help the others is always a good thing no matter what, but the Linux Desktop is not a commercial product hence there is not any reason why must be easy for anyone to learn or use. However all the newer distros that try to monetize their effort are particular focused on being easy to learn and try to hide the command line as much as possible.

Your statement is contradictory because there will be always people that are natural curious and will learn GNU & Linux whatsoever, based on your statement at this point we should have just 5 nerds using Linux.

Be excellent with each other is an attitude worth to be followed in every place, in the Linux community as well as in the line at the market. But making the life easy for the new comers is nice but hard to pursue.

Respect the RTFM this depends by each individual, I received a lot of RTFM in the Debian Forum as well in the Arch Forum at beginning of my path with GNU/Linux. Mostly inappropriate because asking on a forum is usually my last resort, the fact those people are just gross in front to a computer monitor as well as in the super market. Who cares about them. I read always the manual.

By the way I stopped to convince people to use Linux. You don't need to bring GNU/Linux to the people, people that do not accept thing just because "it is what it is" will find their way by themselves.
@alex @daniel01 @thelinuxEXP I am still not getting what exactly you disagree with. There are several points:

- free software needs more people
- ...thus it needs more newbies and we should be more welcoming
- ...there should be better focus on human-readable documentation
- ...application software should have lower barrier to entry when it comes to initial setup and maintenance

Which are wrong in your opinion?

Linux is not a consumer product because it is not commercial and not intended as such but I don't see how being not a consumer product contradicts any of the above.
@alex @daniel01 @thelinuxEXP Myself I can agree that there is quite a room for improvement.

Even if someone isn't total newbie there are still hurdles sometimes. E.g. let's something very popular and widely used - Samba. Suppose there is someone unfamiliar with it but very familiar with the concept itself (Windows admin for example) who wants to try it for the most basic thing - shared folders.

Post-install - no notices what to do next.
Official website - no deployment guide, at least not on first two levels from the main page.

Yes, it is very simple and someone who knows how to google will find some pointers quickly. But still.
@daniel01 @alex @thelinuxEXP We are not speaking about free software as in freedom or as in FSF. I would also add that FSF is very welcoming with a lot documentation available.

I am disagree with you as well even because if we continue to use the word Linux as big container where put everything together we continue to use the terminologies and meanings inappropriately.

From the FSF perspective liekely than having more people in absolute they would have more people that care more about free software as in freedom rather than just open source within "the open source and linux community".

"Better focus on human-readable documentation": fine but who should do that? Some distros are better organized than other and have a wonderful wiki, what's wrong with the Arch Wiki? Some distros have an awful wiki like Debian which has on the contrary the bigger community of developers and maintainers.

.application software should have lower barrier to entry when it comes to initial setup and maintenance, didn't understand what you mean... But you have people that use their spare time to improve and fix the code and the software you use and you are blaming them because aren't making the software easy to use for you? Seriously?

And let me say that Linux is not a consumer product is an industrial product is already over, it is exploited everywhere but the desktop, and elsewhere the desktop is not used focused on security or privacy.

From time to time I go the Inkscape forum to see if I can help some newbie but the majorities of those people demand to be assisted, demand you resolve their issues as that was an helpdesk forum, have a very arrogant attitude, are constantly blaming Inkscape without having any clue about free software or open source. We really don't need these people.
@alex @daniel01 @thelinuxEXP I get your points and I agree to some of them.

I am not sure about "natural percentage of people that do not consider their OS a consumer product and like dirt their hands" though. In recent years there is noticeable influx of people who aren't particularly interested in Linux itself but are interested in flexibility and freedom. Linux itself became friendlier - e.g. popular distros work on most modern laptops out of the box. Same for Linux-based services - like Fediverse servers, Tor nodes, whatever. Not all of them (maybe not the most of them even) are run by Linux enthusiasts. However since it all becomes more accessible, especially in terms of knowledge, people respond.

Is it a bad thing? Should we want more of this or should we want everyone to either dive deep or leave? I remember that "RTFM or GTFO" principle which used to be prevalent on so many forums.

Note that I don't "blame" anyone. If someone does something for free then it goes "as is" by definition. However it doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement - it doesn't mean that someone has to do it but it would be nice if people had more focus on accessibility when maintaining something they welcome public to use.

Main problem I see here is the attitude which often boils down to "no, it is excellent already and needs no improvement, piss off". I am fine with "yes, it is non-ideal but no one has done that yet" - this is absolutely understandable.

Yes, noobs can be arrogant. So are oldfags. It isn't nice and not productive. The thing about noobs is that some of them can grow and become productive community members. Not all but some. Arrogant old guard seems to stay that way forever though.
@daniel01 @alex @thelinuxEXP Being an arrogant has nothing to do with being a noob or a power users. There is a lot of rudeness historically in the software community, a lot of machismo as well, don't know the reason and I am not going to investigate the cause here.

Being polite and welcoming is totally cool, who is going to that? I don't know. Only the community that have a community manager or something similar have these approach. If that guys was talking about a personal effort made by "daily desktop linux user", that is something personal, I hardly see how it might be possible to coordinate such eventuality.

I am habit to help people on the Debian forum, or Inkscape forum, but when people just complaint or demand solution they should really grateful that someone wast 30 sec of his/her life to post a link where reading information.

From my point of view we don't need more people, especially if they are looking for playing videogames or having adobe suite available on Linux.
@daniel01 @alex @thelinuxEXP Let me add one more thing. I see in all these bloggers and youtubers a shared path, a precise scheme. None of those guys, that are always speaking about open source, speak about free software as in freedom, they're constantly overlapping open source over free software (as in freedom) undermining its value.

Opensource is good for software development but it is not necessary good for the end users, read this out:

medium.com/@johnmark/why-open-…

There is a project to crash down the FSF just because the retaliation and vengeance are in the habits of the capitalism and the corporates mentality. I saw it with my eyes, I suffered it personally.

Free Software is the new taboo, I am pretty sure most of those guys received the order to not speak about Free Software or FSF. I repeat myself again, remove GNU from Linux and you have Android and ChromeOS and forget about privacy or security.

For me the problem is not the lack of new users is the lack of support toward the Free Software (as in Freedom) Philosophy, which is the first reason that drove me to use only Linux in the last ten years...
@alex @daniel01 @thelinuxEXP Good points, I agree with you on the most of them. Especially when it comes to freedom concept. I think preserving the idea of freedom in FOSS is essential.

I still think drawing fresh blood is important. It isn't top priority and certainly FOSS shouldn't even consider losing "F" in the slightest to increase market share yet it is one of priorities. I don't think it should be centrally enforced or managed in any way. It should simply be part of the idea. Elitism and machismo on the other hand should be seen as something alien to Freedom philosophy. Freedom of any kind is nothing without "all shapes and colors - let them come".

Otherwise the opponents of Free Software won't even have to do anything - just let numbers of users fall below certain threshold and in 2030 you won't find popular laptop compatible enough with Linux to bother running it unless you are hardcore enthusiast.

Again I don't think it is something that should be enforced in any way. Just something to consider.
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